Finished reading.

1) Welcome, adaliabooks.

2) I read HSL's explanation to Lift, but I still don't get, why didn't vote me. It seemed an obvious thing to do.

Fun fact: Bookwyrm wasn't my towniest read, I had him down as likely town but didn't know for sure that's what I was going to be till night fell and I asked for a PM so I knew what I was subbing in to.

To me the best use of the NK (particularly in a day 1 no lynch situation) is to deny town useful flips. Flipping cristi or SPF (or flub), assuming any of them are town, gives town some info to untangle things. Flipping Vitek, not so much. So no, it doesn't really surprise me that scum skipped possible town PRs to deny us info.

Part of it with flub for me is definitely that I see no way him and cristi are both scum, so if cristi is scum (and I assume she is) then flub can't be.
That being said... I do wonder if there isn't some kind of recruitment mechanic going on as we have two players who potentially openly signalled to the cylons (flub's avatar and cristi's sleeper comment)...
But flub's just do it comment about his lynch actually rings town to me. It reminds me of day 1 in the last System Shock cult game, he had claimed vanilla and was a very sensible option for lynch. And he said something along the lines of he's played a lot of Mafia and doesn't mind dying day 1 for the greater good.
Kind of like a far subtler form of the antics me and Bookwyrm have performed in the past to try and draw out scum.
So I do wonder if town flub had almost intended to be the day 1 lynch with his pylon avatar...


Lift's point about cristi claiming. I read it the same way. Time to prepare a claim screams of fake claim to me. I can see how you could interpret it the other way and just assume she didn't want to claim unless she absolutely had to, but it felt far more like scum stalling when I read it through.
He has made some other good points too (at least I think it was him) so I'm backing down a little on my original suspicion of him.

1) Eh...no. You're making me re-read my own words to know WTS (what the smurf, of course) I meant. I was probably blurring multiple points.

a) While I agree that too much NK analysis tends to be a distraction, I still found adalia's "Well, Vitek- no surprise there!" to be a little too...comfortable as an opening argument in his first post of the game. Perhaps the cheerful demeanor of someone who has not yet given in to the cynicism and suspicion of being 10 rl days in. Perhaps.
b) The highlighted part was really about a guess as to WHY you bypass the two roles on the table. One pertains to the alignment of those two specifically and all the WIFOM thereof; the other drifts off into speculation about setup and the threats/counters they might be looking at.

But imo you only leave town powers up if a) you think you can lynch them anyway, or b) the setup is such that powers just aren't a priority and NKing Viteks is more important. We're playing catch-up, of course.

Summary version: I don't know what the setup is, but I'd bet 100 Baltars that it's not town!cristi + town!SPF with mafia composed of all goons.

2) I don't know, I probably wouldn't have said it exactly like that myself, but I'm not particularly suspicious about it.

This forum in particular is just absolute smurfsmurf when you're looking at tight timelines. You can't multi-post, you have to refresh to see what's come in after, there's no built in game timer, you can't just press a button and get a vote count, etc. I can see a desire to just ask for clarity before trying to manage a response on a site that makes everyone post clumsily.

Case in point, I think I appeared with...10 or so minutes left? I posted and when I refreshed there were like 3 responses to me, and trent(?) was telling me to stay off SPF but aside from not knowing what was going on that led to that gamestate my sense was I just couldn't engage meaningfully anyway under that timeline. And if I posted one thing, that might (in theory) be my final post of the day, since if no one else posted I'd be locked out of posting again. I just couldn't get sorted in that environment, and I'm not usually at a loss for opinions/things to say.

That wasn't the only reason I stood pat by any reason, but it was certainly part of it. I literally just walked away from my desk because it felt useless. It's the same reason I'm not particularly swayed by arguments that you/JoeS should have done something different down the stretch - the whole felt like a clustersmurf to me and I was only in it for 5-10 min.

But I definitely agree with your last point - I'm not making any decisions about my direction/vote for the day until she's laid out ...something.



Was that too aggressive? I could soften it up a bit.

Thanks.

And while we're at it... Why didn't you vote for yourself?
You did state you would be ok joining your own wagon (a sure turn around from your earlier stance that getting lynched for newbie mistakes would be terrible for town) so why didn't you vote yourself at any point in the end of day to try and secure a lynch?

No worries, we'll get there soon enough. I'm actually starting to wonder if you're not exploiting the EoD1 frak to delay getting under my eye...


Piggy-bagging on SirPrimalform's argument now? How nice.

Of course I'm not immune to mistakes, never claimed to be, and your evidence is right there in the timeline of EoD1.

Let me see if I follow your argument - I hesitated/refused to bus my scum-buddies, which becomes even more glaring to you because I didn't do it in that post of mine. And that's scum!me screwing up a bit. At EoD1. Because, obviously, as scum I'm more immune to errors.

I'll ask you again - if I'm more immune to mistakes as scum, then how the frak did I screw this up so royally that not only did I make myself suspect but also gave away the whole mafia team? At EoD1 of all Days? Even though I'm a competent player? And you count that as screwing up a bit? Really? Mate, such a situation is screwing up a lot as scum (and town), not a bit; it was more than certain that it would draw a lot of attention, a lot; it was more than certain that it'd be a topic of (heated?) discussion Today. Since you prefer to think this was scum!me, then along with thinking that I'm more immune to mistakes as scum, you must also think that I'm also more stupid.

And to give rest to the "why I didn't vote in post #602" once and for all, since apparently you didn't get what threw me off - I thought we had a few more minutes; Damnation going from "Do we really want every roleclaim on there on D1?!" to "Fine, you win, Cristi!", and voting her in post #587 messed with my brain (good for you all if you're that cool you don't bat an eye) that I thought of placing my vote on ZFR to counter his move after I had clicked "post". And as soon as I did, I voted without refreshing. Hence post #606. Turns out, time had run out.

Unless you have a different line of arguments, I'm done here. I've explained how things went down for me, you (personal and general) either believe me, or not.



Three things.

- The bit you quoted should read "I don't think I'm the only one".

- You're right, we should be careful of assuming it was a fail (and to think that I threw that assumptions joke at JoeSapphire in my previous post). I called it a fail, because I know it was a fail on my part, and nothing more.

- I'm fully aware that being reluctant to vote because I think things over and over, especially on D1 when I don't have strong convictions, is a big shortcoming of mine, perhaps the biggest, and that I need to work more on it. EoD1 was certainly a lesson for me, and I'll try to be more proactive with my vote going forward.

Is that a tentative LAMIST card?

You've been granted a breather anyway. It's gotten late, and on top of feeling funny my head hurts by now; hopefully a good night's sleep will fix me up.

Will read the rest beyond this post tomorrow. Night all.

Well, it was certainly a collective inaction - halfway through the day I observed we had two wagons at L-4/L-3 and it actually got worse from there before the last day frenzy. Vitek responded by peeing on the L-4 wagon as even being a wagon at all - and...he was apparently right.

So yes, you definitely (thus the tease), but also really not just you.

I think every post he's made has made me itch to lynch him at least a little bit. ;)

I resisted the urge to lol at his question to ZFR (I'll just do it here instead). The implication that "it's scummy/suspicious you didn't vote for yourself!" is particularly amusing coming from a Bookwyrm-slot.

Good night! :)

Good to know I haven't lost my touch ;)

That's a genuine question, since he's so upset with Hyper and Damnation for not voting him it seems odd seeing as he expressed a willingness to self vote earlier in D1 and didn't at all in the EoD.

Hmmm...well there you have it - a post that doesn't make me want to lynch you! ;)

Well. I guess it's interesting in looking at your slot - Bookwyrm seemed dead set against a ZFR lynch for things I personally would consider to be more significant than someone exploring self-voting and then not doing it. And in a day where ZFR might have been a viable lynch if Wyrm had been half as interested as you (if memory serves).

You roll in D2 swinging hard the other way. Not sure what to make of that. Pure, maybe. Distracting maybe, though not sure what the motive would be where we sit currently.

Since cristi's not here to move us meaningfully into D2 business, I don't suppose you want to quote/link the prior discussion in question where ZFR promised or implied self-flagellation and/or -immolation?

I didn't say I'm ok joining my own wagon.

I said I don't mind getting lynched if it helps town, but I don't see how doing that myself helps town.

I'm not upset with HSL and Dam nation for not voting for me in particular. If they like Vitek or Trent didnt like my wagon then OK. But they were ok with it and I was an "obvious " lynch why didn't they vote? HSL explained why he didn't vote cristi. But why not me?

Also I never said Im willing to vote myself. Is that good town play at all?

Were you able to see the timestamps on the posts at EOD?

I've read through the posts so I saw Hyper's description on events. I thought there was a little less than 10 minutes left when I made post #594 but the very next post was the mod's 5 minute post. Must have been lag. If people were going to vote me, I wanted them to do it so that I could make a claim before EOD. I didn't want to die without claiming.

@Joe - Saying you would vote me OR ZFR does not tell me where you actually will place your vote....and I wasn't seeing a vote. I thought Hyper would vote ZFR. You could have both voted ZFR. At the time, it felt like you intentionally waited until the last second to vote. I believe your explanation of what happened.

I didn't think I would be a NK unless someone vigged me. I figured I'd be an early lynch option today, why kill a potential PR when they are a possible mis-lynch? Kill me and it removes the suspicion being thrown my way. I'm not sure how much suspicion my town-flip generates towards the remaining players - probably less than I'd like.

My guess on SPF is that, if town, mafia thought he might be protected. I believe SPF. If he is lying, it should self-resolve in the coming days. The longer he lives the scummier it will look (all other things being equal).

If flubb is town...killing him would make me look bad and perhaps a little for Lift or ZFR. I think town!flubb would be a good candidate for the NK. However, see the next comment…

I liked this. Scum could obviously share this, I'm not sure if they do.

No. She would hint at having an important town role and then stall. ... Oh look! That's exactly what she did!


I'm not bagging any pigs, thank you very much!

And I didn't imply that you are more immune to errors as scum. You're starting to mis-represent again! What I meant is: as scum I can see a reason for your error. I can, sort of, understand where it came from. So it's less of a screw-up than making that error completely without any reason as town.

And there we have it. A lie. Or at least a mis-representation of your own post: No, you didn't think we had a few more minutes. You stated yourself, quite clearly, that we had less than 5 minutes. So, by your own words, you were fully aware that we didn't have 'a few more minutes'. And yet, instead of voting, you asked if we really want more claims to come out...
Let me ask you a bit of simple math: if you have less than 5 minutes to the deadline, but you take more than 5 minutes to write your vote post ... what did you expect would happen?

You know what? Since cristi isn't here and I don't want to vote her without giving her a chance to explain, I'll put my vote where my words are and

vote HSL


You have already left the usual HSL-mis-representation-attacks domain and entered the scum-HSL-making-something-up domain. I am by now quite confident that you are scum with cristigale. Or that you are scum and that cristi is your sleeper, as she hinted at the start of D1.



That is a very good question and also I agree that self-voting rarely helps town.

Doesn't make sense. If you wanted to make sure you didn't die without claiming, then you could just have claimed. With less than 10 minutes (as your assumption was), it was quite obvious that last minute votes might be piling on you. Waiting for L-1, then claiming, then switching to ZFR would take time. More time than there was. You knew that time was tight and yet, instead of claiming, you wrote 'Hey, I need time to claim'. You know what that's called? Stalling!

Aaand now you just gave scum a reason to leave him alive. Or, if you are scum yourself with him, you provided a WIFOM excuse.

Too bad that I can't vote for two people. Right now I want to lynch both you and HSL!