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KingofGnG: The ones that manage dosbox staging were banned from VOGONS right before my eyes, and I don't think they can "continue" shit :-)
For what ends or means were they banned?


At this point, they just "stole" someone's code (if stealing can be a concept in open source software) and declared all by themselves that they were doing the next big thing in emulation.
Yes, open source projects have licences; but Dosbox is licenced under GPL2 or later, which while holding stipulations, should not have had any objections to Dosbox-Staging.

To me, dosbox staging feels exactly the same as Libretro/Retroarch: a giant load of crap with all the wrong priorities, and totally worthless - ie, superfluous - compared to their respective original projects.

I frankly don't give a flying fock about SDL2, multi-platform, touch screens and other "modern" stuff. We're trying to play DOS games here, for focks sake :-D
Well, at the goings rate, DOSbox 0.75 should be expected sometime in the 2030s, in spite of being inbound for quite a while now, when the real development seems to have run around of the OpenTTD problem where features keep getting pushed to trunk but nobody in the management deigns to actually push them forward.

For reasons of which can only be said of "momentum" or support of ancient platforms that nobody uses.
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Darvond: For what ends or means were they banned?
Because they were being assholes to DOSBox developers, if I remember correctly.

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Darvond: Well, at the goings rate, DOSbox 0.75 should be expected sometime in the 2030s, in spite of being inbound for quite a while now, when the real development seems to have run around of the OpenTTD problem where features keep getting pushed to trunk but nobody in the management deigns to actually push them forward.

For reasons of which can only be said of "momentum" or support of ancient platforms that nobody uses.
Either way, I don't give a flying fock really :-D

DOS emulation has become a commodity THANKS TO DOSBox, and you can improve the code however you want without being a b1tch about "modern development" and other meaningless crap like the teams at DOSBox-X or DOSBox ECE are perfectly capable of doing.


You seem rather interested in pushing this narrative about dosbox staging being the best thing that ever happened to the world after sliced bread, and I suspect you have something to do with the project itself. Which would be as much insufferable as this dosbox staging crap itself...
What's the reason for dosbox development being so slow? Is it simple "it's good enough and no one has time to work on it anymore" common with many mature FOSS projects or something more "interesting"?
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ssling: What's the reason for dosbox development being so slow? Is it simple "it's good enough and no one has time to work on it anymore" common with many mature FOSS projects or something more "interesting"?
I'm following the DOSBox activity on SourceForge, and development is still going on. Very slowly. The developers have likely other things to do right now.
high rated
I've gotten over 8,000 games running in dosbox. Many of our fixes have been inherited by gog.

I have to rely on 13 different dosbox builds because of all the issues inherent to vanilla 0.74r3.

Anyone who thinks vanilla dosbox is sufficient has only relied on it for major commercial releases.

Anyone who wonders why staging got banned hasn't spent any time on vogons. I once asked about getting a game running and was immediately accused of breaking "rule zero" (no piracy). I took a picture of my disc and posted it and told the guy he needed to check himself, and instead of the mods agreeing with me, they told me I was out of line for defending myself.

The second the dirty word "GitHub" was mentioned at vogons, the devs got defensive.

To be completely fair, the mouthpiece for staging at the time (_dreamer) was being obnoxious as well. He came into my discord and didn't do the project any favors. But now, several years later, staging has added several features that are key to the eXoDOS project.

Everything from quality of life changes (such as being able to mount wild card images and have it detect and load them in the proper order) to including the recently developed ReelMagic emulation allowing us to properly emulate MPEG versions of games like Return to Zork and American Laser games.

None of which vanilla can do right now.

Then there is the fact that vanilla dosbox and svn dosbox still have tons of issues with win3x games that daum solved a decade ago. So far, only staging has shown any commitment to trying to bring those changes forward, while dealing with all of the potential regressions.

Even with staging out of the picture, if you think X and SVN are the only two build that matter, you haven't spent time setting up proper networking, extended sound cards (fluidsynth & general midi), etc. Hell, last time I tried to get networking running in X I couldn't get the networking to even initialize. When I reached out to the author, he looked and found her had it disabled because, according to him, "no one ever tested it". Not exactly confidence inspiring.

So if you "just want to play forking DOS games", maybe you should drop the tribalism crap and take time to understand why different builds are beneficial for different games. And then you will eventually realize how limited and archaic the vanilla version your precious vogons devs are peddling.
Post edited January 17, 2023 by exo
YEAH, WHAT THE GUY IN THE PRIOR POST SAID. YOU ENTITLED 2 ANSWERS SIMPLETON.
Post edited January 17, 2023 by ktmm38
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exo: Everything from quality of life changes (such as being able to mount wild card images and have it detect and load them in the proper order) to including the recently developed ReelMagic emulation allowing us to properly emulate MPEG versions of games like Return to Zork and American Laser games.
Don't forget the really nice quality of life features such as being able to change sound devices on the fly and have them properly emulate the quirks of each device, be it the DSS or CMS. If that becomes something like the Dosbox Keymapper or even Apple's Houdini II board, (which came with a control extension to manage a few settings of the PC side) it'd basically outclass any launcher by far, and eliminate a lot of that faffery with configuration files.
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KingofGnG: At this point, they just "stole" someone's code (if stealing can be a concept in open source software) and declared all by themselves that they were doing the next big thing in emulation.
If you think DOSBox Staging stole any code, I would strongly advise you learn what a GPL is. By the way, for those who don't know KingGnG is a DOSBox Staging fanatical hater. He goes around on social media and wastes his time being toxic agaisnt the project. For instance, recently he posted the same thing on Reddit: https://old.reddit.com/r/emulation/comments/zrnetn/dosbox_staging_080_has_now_been_released/j15z54i/. For some reason he goes around obcessively hating DOSBox Staging... LOL
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KingofGnG: To me, dosbox staging feels exactly the same as Libretro/Retroarch: a giant load of crap with all the wrong priorities, and totally worthless - ie, superfluous - compared to their respective original projects.

I frankly don't give a flying fock about SDL2, multi-platform, touch screens and other "modern" stuff. We're trying to play DOS games here, for focks sake :-D
What is wrong with the priorities, precisely? Almost all the features in the last large release (0.80.0) are beneficial for gaming, adding support for more games, improving experience with others.

SDL 1.x is obsolete and unmaintained, it starts causing problems with many systems, including mine. There is already SDL 3 in the works, in fact. Without cross-platform support you won’t attract, for example, Linux open-source developers, so it is quite crucial, I would say (BTW, original DOSBox is cross-platform too, same like X and most other forks).
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exo: I've gotten over 8,000 games running in dosbox. Many of our fixes have been inherited by gog.

I have to rely on 13 different dosbox builds because of all the issues inherent to vanilla 0.74r3.

Anyone who thinks vanilla dosbox is sufficient has only relied on it for major commercial releases.

Anyone who wonders why staging got banned hasn't spent any time on vogons. I once asked about getting a game running and was immediately accused of breaking "rule zero" (no piracy). I took a picture of my disc and posted it and told the guy he needed to check himself, and instead of the mods agreeing with me, they told me I was out of line for defending myself.

The second the dirty word "GitHub" was mentioned at vogons, the devs got defensive.

To be completely fair, the mouthpiece for staging at the time (_dreamer) was being obnoxious as well. He came into my discord and didn't do the project any favors. But now, several years later, staging has added several features that are key to the eXoDOS project.

Everything from quality of life changes (such as being able to mount wild card images and have it detect and load them in the proper order) to including the recently developed ReelMagic emulation allowing us to properly emulate MPEG versions of games like Return to Zork and American Laser games.

None of which vanilla can do right now.

Then there is the fact that vanilla dosbox and svn dosbox still have tons of issues with win3x games that daum solved a decade ago. So far, only staging has shown any commitment to trying to bring those changes forward, while dealing with all of the potential regressions.

Even with staging out of the picture, if you think X and SVN are the only two build that matter, you haven't spent time setting up proper networking, extended sound cards (fluidsynth & general midi), etc. Hell, last time I tried to get networking running in X I couldn't get the networking to even initialize. When I reached out to the author, he looked and found her had it disabled because, according to him, "no one ever tested it". Not exactly confidence inspiring.

So if you "just want to play forking DOS games", maybe you should drop the tribalism crap and take time to understand why different builds are beneficial for different games. And then you will eventually realize how limited and archaic the vanilla version your precious vogons devs are peddling.
Well, yours is a sliiiiiiighly edge-case, when it comes to DOSBox builds, considering that you are amassing thousands (tens of thousands?) of games in a single package - many of which 90% of DOS users never saw or knew anything about :-P

So said, you can do whatever you want with DOSBox code, it's open source after all. What you should not do, is exactly what the dosbox staging team did: declaring that they were creating the fucking "future of emulation" and that they wanted to do the thing the way they thought was the best for the project.

It's the same bullshit I've read for years about retroarch/libretro, and I'm not interested in the slightest. It's not tribalism, I don't think the DOSBox authors need anyone's help here or elsewhere. It's just that I hate bullshit, there is too much of it in the AFK world already. And I saw dosbox staging be born out of bullshit and propaganda, so I avoided considering (and I will continue to do so in the future) the project altogether.
@KingofGnG: Wait, the only problem with Staging you have is that it is advertised as “modern continuation of DOSBox with advanced features and current development practices”? No missing important features, no poor support of your favorite environment, no serious unfixed regressions, no substantive criticism of development practices, C++17, GIT, etc.,
no technical problem with integrated libraries?

Sometimes I feel old. Very old.
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C64Roman: Wait, the only problem with Staging you have is that it is advertised as “modern continuation of DOSBox with advanced features and current development practices”?
Almost everything I have read about dosbox-staging amounted to: « DOSBox is crap, what we do is gold. You would be stupid to chose crap over gold. ». It has been enough to deter me from trying it, no matter what it could really bring on the technical side.

What I really see is a fork that chose GitHub and Discord over SourceForge and IRC. If this is what "current development practices" are, count me out.

Maybe there are some real technical improvements under the layers of bullshit, but I won’t go digging to find them.
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vv221: What I really see is a fork that chose GitHub and Discord over SourceForge and IRC. If this is what "current development practices" are, count me out.
There is much more: language is C++17, which allows to write more compact and less error-prone code. Pull requests undergo code review, even for the core team members. There exist unit tests, although they cover a very small part of code. There are various pre-push checks at the GitHub side: code is compiled by several different compilers for several platforms, compiler warnings are checked, there is a static code analysis involved, etc. - I’m not sure if SourceForge can do something like this at all. Code is being run through memory sanitizer from time to time.
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vv221: What I really see is a fork that chose GitHub and Discord over SourceForge and IRC. If this is what "current development practices" are, count me out.

Maybe there are some real technical improvements under the layers of bullshit, but I won’t go digging to find them.
IRC you say...

Also GitHub has been the defacto standard for the last decade or so. Public or private for corporations, it is the code base management system of choice, and for good reason.
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Post edited January 20, 2023 by hunvagy
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hunvagy: Also GitHub has been the defacto standard for the last decade or so. Public or private for corporations, it is the code base management system of choice, and for good reason.
Before that it was SourceForge… We see how it ended up.

I would be curious to learn what is the "good reason" behind centralization of a lot of open-source code on GitHub.