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Breja: Brings to mind the bizzare way Mysteries of the Sith handled skill points, by awarding them for finding secrets in levels (and only that). They still work like optional collectables, you don't have to find them all, technically you don't have to find any I guess, and yet they're the only way to improve your character. It's such a weird and meta game concept, to tie character progression to a vestige of old FPS level design entirely abstract to any story or level objectives or core gameplay.
Like morolf wrote, it was also the case in JK. and also you do get skillpoints for normally completing levels, and a bonus skillpoint each time you find all secrets in a level. On normal difficulty that normal skill progression is mostly enough, on hard you really want all the skillpoints you can get.

What's worse is that the game(s) basically requires you to spot the secrets "at once" because the levels are filled with points of no return. So simply playing to the end and then go hunting for secrets (like in Doom or Quake) is not an option. Also means you never know if you've already walked past a secret and have no way to go back. That's shitty game design, even if I like those games otherwise.
Post edited April 28, 2021 by toxicTom
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toxicTom: Like morolf wrote, it was also the case in JK.
I guess because I really like JK, but absolutely hated Mysteries, my poor memory ascribed this annoying design only to the latter.
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morolf: Ruin might go too far, but if I think it's badly done, it definitely makes me think less of a game. Example: Last year I played through Dragon Age: Origins for the first time and pretty much despised the optional side quests. It's mostly really terrible mmorpg-style stuff where you just have to kill someone (usually on flimsy grounds), fetch something or visit some locations. Extremely unimaginative and repetitive. And sure, technically those quests can be skipped, but then you lose a lot of gold and experience. I liked other aspects of the game like the lore and even the combat was decent enough, but the nature of the side quests really made me feel that for all its high production values I wouldn't rank it as a top rpg.
I was actually going to post this. Especially when you purchased the vanilla edition, and you get that whole spiel about needing DLC to partake. It was immersion shattering and a completely unneeded thing. Whoever thought that the NPCs shouldn't be disabled in vanilla until said DLC was purchased should have gotten some kind of reprimand.

Driving side content in games that don't have great driving elements nor a focus on it. Why the fuck would I want to waste my time doing races in a game that's implemented it poorly? Dear Open World specific designers: stop it, get some help.
Mafia 3 base-game is the perfect example of tons of side-stuff for you...and can get into the way of a base-game that has a great story, great characters, great presentation, and whatnot.

And they also (and unfortunately) have too many grindy missions in the main quest too.

Yet, I had no problem going through all of the more focused and excellent DLC's, which aren't loaded w/ this stuff.

Also, while I'm at it: Mafia 1 Definitive was excellent and for future Mafias, that type of design should be the model they follow.
Post edited April 28, 2021 by MysterD