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kohlrak: tl;dr
You are CONSTANTLY overestimating my interest in the details of Elder Scrolls lore :P.
But I can say with 800% certainty that Bethesda devs did not intentionally put explicit parallels between Elder Scrolls races and real world racial groups (beyond the very superficial stuff like Nords are vikings and they don't mind the cold), such as "Khajit are jews and they are secularly religious and greedy".
They're not crazy, and there isn't really any "satire" there to see.

But more on topic, I would very much like to hear some concrete examples of well implemented lore (not plot or story) in games.
Mentioned so far are the books in Morrowind (which I never read)
Also mentioned is the compendium in Mass Effect (which I almost never opened :D)

But the discussion with kohlrak reminded me of the one time lore works is when it isn't functioning as lore, it's part of the story: stuff like interactions with Azura and the other Daedric princes.
Whether I care about lore depends on the game. In some I read every piece of the text and in some I skip it and focus on the gameplay. If the game has an original world or unconventional plot I prefer to read more. In Deus Ex I read every possible book and e-mail that I encountered. That was true for Planescape Torment as well and for many other games. Currently I'm playing Assassin's Creed 4 and I prefer to skip the lore that isn't part of the main plot. It's more entertaining to me that way.

It's characteristic for modern times that even action games have a rich lore. In the past it was reserved only for cRPG. That's a good direction. It's always nice to have more to read about the world. I prefer to have a choice even when I decide to skip the additional content. Rich lore makes computer games more like books. It makes a bridge between those two mediums, a connection from which computer games could benefit a lot.
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babark: I would very much like to hear some concrete examples of well implemented lore (not plot or story) in games.
Can you elaborate about "well implemented"?
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LootHunter: Can you elaborate about "well implemented"?
Presented in a way that folds well into the game. Rather than hearing an audolog of some festival or seeing some distant memory, you would participate in the festival directly and have a good time of it.

If some character is presented as a legend, would you rather read some journal and never see any evidence of their legend in the world, or would you want to find some skull of some ancient beast with their name carved into it?
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LootHunter: Can you elaborate about "well implemented"?
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Darvond: Presented in a way that folds well into the game. Rather than hearing an audolog of some festival or seeing some distant memory, you would participate in the festival directly and have a good time of it.

If some character is presented as a legend, would you rather read some journal and never see any evidence of their legend in the world, or would you want to find some skull of some ancient beast with their name carved into it?
How about if the game has time travel and has you actually meet the character in question when you travel back in time? (I can think of one game offhand that did that.)
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dtgreene: How about if the game has time travel and has you actually meet the character in question when you travel back in time? (I can think of one game offhand that did that.)
Or where you use time travel to solve a puzzle or pilfer a few things? I can think of a couple of games too.
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MightyPinecone: Monsters wont respawn as quickly if you leave their corpses in the world (so don't dispose of them). There is likely a mod for the money issue, but I find that the entire economic system is pretty broken in Morrowind and it's not difficult to become very rich by just abusing it. If you could sell the more powerful items for their full value, you would quickly run out of things worth buying anyway.
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Cavalary: I know, but not relevant. Just feels wrong to leave corpses littering everywhere if it's possible to dispose of them. And the selling isn't for buying, again just feels wrong to have stuff with sale value and being unable to sell them for it.
Ok, fair enough. I do think they should have made the respawn time longer for disposed corpses, and I can understand you if it disturbs you that you can get the maximum price for your items. I won't force you to like the game as much as I do. This is one of those games I love, warts and all. :)
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LootHunter: Can you elaborate about "well implemented"?
I suppose some generalised definitions are in order :D

"Story" or "Plot" I'd say is stuff that is directly connected to the progression in the game.

"Lore" is extra info or detail about the game world and its people that has nothing to do with your progression in the game.

So in my mind, examples such as being able to go back in time and interacting with the characters from the lore doesn't really count, because then it becomes part of the plot.

"Well implemented" is up to you. If you feel audio logs with info-dumps are a good implementation of lore in a game (I don't, personally), do tell.
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Cavalary: I know, but not relevant. Just feels wrong to leave corpses littering everywhere if it's possible to dispose of them. And the selling isn't for buying, again just feels wrong to have stuff with sale value and being unable to sell them for it.
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MightyPinecone: Ok, fair enough. I do think they should have made the respawn time longer for disposed corpses, and I can understand you if it disturbs you that you can get the maximum price for your items. I won't force you to like the game as much as I do. This is one of those games I love, warts and all. :)
Thing is, I like the option of having things respawn quickly, as sometimes I want to farm item drops or experience, or I just want to have fun playing around with enemies or doing experiments that rely on enemies present.

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LootHunter: Can you elaborate about "well implemented"?
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babark: I suppose some generalised definitions are in order :D

"Story" or "Plot" I'd say is stuff that is directly connected to the progression in the game.

"Lore" is extra info or detail about the game world and its people that has nothing to do with your progression in the game.

So in my mind, examples such as being able to go back in time and interacting with the characters from the lore doesn't really count, because then it becomes part of the plot.

"Well implemented" is up to you. If you feel audio logs with info-dumps are a good implementation of lore in a game (I don't, personally), do tell.
What if the time travel event is completely optional? Is that still part of the plot, or is that simply lore?
Post edited August 09, 2018 by dtgreene
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MightyPinecone: Ok, fair enough. I do think they should have made the respawn time longer for disposed corpses, and I can understand you if it disturbs you that you can get the maximum price for your items. I won't force you to like the game as much as I do. This is one of those games I love, warts and all. :)
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dtgreene: Thing is, I like the option of having things respawn quickly, as sometimes I want to farm item drops or experience, or I just want to have fun playing around with enemies or doing experiments that rely on enemies present.
Which I guess underlines that you can't please them all. Personally, I can live with leaving the corpses around, though I'd rather I didn't have to.
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babark: I would very much like to hear some concrete examples of well implemented lore (not plot or story) in games.
Mentioned so far are the books in Morrowind (which I never read)
Also mentioned is the compendium in Mass Effect (which I almost never opened :D)
So you mean PS:T wasn't mentioned, or you don't consider it lore? There's a whole lot of it popping up everywhere I'd say. Or is it the fact that it's based on existing lore, the Planescape setting?
Otherwise, Arcanum (surprised it wasn't mentioned so far)? Maybe something to say about Gothic 2 too (more there than in 1, and didn't play 3 to compare)? Betrayal at Krondor (which feels like playing a book, but again the matter of the existing setting)?
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dtgreene: Thing is, I like the option of having things respawn quickly, as sometimes I want to farm item drops or experience, or I just want to have fun playing around with enemies or doing experiments that rely on enemies present.
Respawns in dungeons and other areas specifically meant to be particularly dangerous, let me clear out the rest? Clear out creatures when they end up being far weaker?
Post edited August 09, 2018 by Cavalary
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dtgreene: What if the time travel event is completely optional? Is that still part of the plot, or is that simply lore?
"Sidequests" are often completely optional, but they're still part of the game's progression. Maybe something like an Easter egg would count, where doing the thing doesn't affect the story in any way.

Then again, do you feel that "Oh, I've been hearing about this legendary character throughout my journey in this game, I'm at a time travel device (that plot-wise probably wants me to go somewhere else), so let me see if I can travel back in time to see this person!"
And then, meeting the person and...what, battling them? Having a quick whirlwind romance with them? Wouldn't any of that all change the lore of the story, or involve you into it? Or just talking to them or passively watching them as they do their amazing thing?
Is that well implemented?

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Cavalary: So you mean PS:T wasn't mentioned, or you don't consider it lore? There's a whole lot of it popping up everywhere I'd say. Or is it the fact that it's based on existing lore, the Planescape setting?
Do you know about portals? Let me tell you about portals. Portals can be anywhere! PORTALS PORTALS PORTALS!
I forgot that PS:T was mentioned, sorry :D, especially considering I love that game. I'm not really aware of the Planescape setting, so the only lore stuff that I explicitly picked up on was the stuff that directly related to the story- portals, and the lady of the maze. I'm sure that since there already existed lore for the setting, it was a well-realised background that helped everything else along, but I don't explicitly remember exposition dumps in the form of books or dialogues. Just some oblique references to eternal wars going on in other realms and different creatures and their place in the world, when it came up naturally in conversation.
Oh, I guess speaking of conversation, the slang in PS:T (which I guess could count as lore, kinda), definitely made it feel like an interesting and lived-in place. And any berk who disagrees can pike off :D.
What specifically in PS:T did you find to be well implemented lore? Or do you mean exactly what I just described?

I've played a bit of Arcanum and a bit of Gothic 2, can you describe what you mean in those games as well? How was the lore implemented?

Sorry for the incessant questions. I just realised that people are always praising well implemented lore in games, and I wanted to figure out what that explicitly meant.

EDIT: Fairfox, nope what?
Post edited August 09, 2018 by babark
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babark: What specifically in PS:T did you find to be well implemented lore? Or do you mean exactly what I just described?
It is implemented quite organically in PS:T, yes. But also remember that long conversation you can unlock piece by piece with Dak'kon. Since I had the required stats, remember going through that entire thing in one sitting. Or maybe almost all of it, may have not had quite enough for the very last bit, not quite sure anymore, but definitely got up to there.
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babark: I've played a bit of Arcanum and a bit of Gothic 2, can you describe what you mean in those games as well? How was the lore implemented?
Been a long time since I played Arcanum, don't recall what of the lore is in books, but there is a lot to explain about that world and it gets to you in bits and pieces. When it gets to beings thousands of years old, there's a question of what's story and what's lore. But the entire setting should count as lore, right? And the parts about magic and what of it is lost with the advance of technology for example, as I remember the stuff about that.

Gothic 2, again been a while, but don't think there are books to read there, so no dumps in that way. Mainly remember some bits about the gods. And the overall atmosphere, which is a different matter, and for example Bloodlines would shine there, but not so sure about "lore" in it, especially other than what comes with the VtM setting.
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babark: Sorry for the incessant questions. I just realised that people are always praising well implemented lore in games, and I wanted to figure out what that explicitly meant.
I said I'm a reader, so if it just dumps "books" at me that I find enjoyable to read, I'm good. If it's brought up in lengthy written conversations (whether also voiced or not, don't exactly care), also good. If it comes more organically and I get to piece it together, also works, but frankly do prefer at least some books or something similar to read. If it's in cutscenes, on the other hand, not so keen. And if those cutscenes don't have subtitles or have dialog that can't be advanced bit by bit, so hit a key and either the whole cutscene gets skipped or nothing happens, really not good, because I tend to read way faster than stuff is spoken, and also understand it better that way.
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kharille: Maybe thats the problem with that game, too much text and too little gameplay. Or at least, I was too overwhelmed to give the game a go.
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dtgreene: This is actually a problem I have with many games, including, for example, modern Final Fantasy games. (Note that I consider FF6 to be the first modern FF.) One thing is that it's not just text; cutscenes, whether as part of the story or as overly long attack animations, are also annoying.
This is why they give you the option to turn them off.

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kohlrak: tl;dr
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babark: You are CONSTANTLY overestimating my interest in the details of Elder Scrolls lore :P.
But I can say with 800% certainty that Bethesda devs did not intentionally put explicit parallels between Elder Scrolls races and real world racial groups (beyond the very superficial stuff like Nords are vikings and they don't mind the cold), such as "Khajit are jews and they are secularly religious and greedy".
They're not crazy, and there isn't really any "satire" there to see.
Elves have been asians in almost all RPGs. Look at the elven races: you have the communist orcs who aren't treated as "normal elves" (Russians), bosmer who are the only cannibals in the series (pacific islanders), and the constantly unbearably poor dunmer who eat strange things (including pets) to survive (dunmer). That's just scratching the surface of those parallels, let alone all the race parallels. And the parallels of the redguard to middle-eastern tropes is so unbearably obvious, from the "they have curved swords. Curved. Swords." line, to the respect for the dead (which is way beyond normal), to the desert (remembre, the other desert people are khajiit/jewish), that whole questline about the woman who left redguard territory, and you could go on. The only ones I haven't figured out at the Bretons, because with the imperial-nord clash would've presumably covered them. Sload, Dovah, Daedra, and such don't seem to have such parallels.
But more on topic, I would very much like to hear some concrete examples of well implemented lore (not plot or story) in games.
Mentioned so far are the books in Morrowind (which I never read)
Also mentioned is the compendium in Mass Effect (which I almost never opened :D)

But the discussion with kohlrak reminded me of the one time lore works is when it isn't functioning as lore, it's part of the story: stuff like interactions with Azura and the other Daedric princes.
Lore must be tied to the story. Lore is basically the story that's not happening in front of you, or the "backstory" including that which may have happened in another game. So games with sequels would be great examples, but TES is usually held up as the big shining example, as well as The Witcher. Continuous RPG series (unlike things like final fantay where the story is contained) typically have the most lore references. Metal Gear uses real life as lore. Deus Ex uses conspiracy theory as lore. Ace Combat, believe it or not, actually has lore.

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LootHunter: Can you elaborate about "well implemented"?
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babark: I suppose some generalised definitions are in order :D

"Story" or "Plot" I'd say is stuff that is directly connected to the progression in the game.

"Lore" is extra info or detail about the game world and its people that has nothing to do with your progression in the game.

So in my mind, examples such as being able to go back in time and interacting with the characters from the lore doesn't really count, because then it becomes part of the plot.

"Well implemented" is up to you. If you feel audio logs with info-dumps are a good implementation of lore in a game (I don't, personally), do tell.
So how does one go about figuring out where the plot ends and the lore begins? How much kissing is there before it's considered making out? How many shakes before you're playing with yourself? How long is too long for a shower? How much force is excessive if your life is in danger? In the end, they're all basically the same question. I'm slowly getting the impression this is more about your preference that you hold to a more universal regard than logically applicable.