It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
avatar
Prator: I can see the merits in saying "I had more fun with this game than with that one." If that's how you feel, so be it. Far be it for me to dictate or criticize the preferences of others. But I fail to see the reasoning behind saying that one game is BETTER than another. I don't think there is any simple hierarchal supremacy chain that every game must take a place on; I think there's just games and other games, and personally I'm content to live and let live.

You seem to be arguing against the assertion that there exists an objective quantity against which the quality of a game can be measured, but I have never heard anyone make such a claim.
avatar
Mentalepsy: You seem to be arguing against the assertion that there exists an objective quantity against which the quality of a game can be measured, but I have never heard anyone make such a claim.
That's because no one ever does make that claim. It is simply assumed to be true. Tacit assumptions like that are present in all human cultures.
When's the last time you've heard someone tell you that something or other was "Right" or "Wrong" but neglected to explain why? You may find a tacit assumption of objective morality there. Or maybe you've been told that some person is entitled to something; free speech, a money-back guarantee, or anything else. There might be a tacit assumption of natural rights behind that.
Such assumptions are not inherently wrong. I believe that their main function is to ease decision-making, and that's not a bad thing. But it's important to recognize their existence and their validity, or lack of validity. Otherwise, you may find yourself making judgements on false premises.
Hmmm..."Tacit assumptions like that are present in all human cultures." See? Right there! An unspoken assumption of universal human nature! I'd better watch myself...
Post edited July 06, 2009 by Prator
avatar
Prator: Or maybe you've been told that some person is entitled to something; free speech, a money-back guarantee, or anything else. There might be a tacit assumption of natural rights behind that.

True to a certain point. But also, as a customer of a product in capitalism, you have a ultimate right to decide what to buy and what not to buy, based on any criteria you choose. There are also laws that are supposed to guarantee fair dealing by people selling things.
Post edited July 06, 2009 by barleyguy
avatar
bastont: I have this weird thing where when I play older games, I have fun with them despite the review scores. However, with newer games I think reviews factor heavily into my purchase pattern until a certain time threshold expires. Basically... I pay for the experience I think it's worth depending on the point of time I'm in. When my friends ask me about newer games my common response is "Yeah, it's fun and all...but I wouldn't pay 60 bucks for it, maybe 40, definitely 30." With that said, certain games like Infamous, and Red Faction: Guerrilla I gladly pay 60 bucks for.
I think with older games that idea is that I was too young, or forbidden by my parents to play some titles growing up ,and I still have that child-like yearning to play them...aged or not.

Another thing with older games? They generally are cheaper for the same expierence you would have when they came out. Extra money+extra game=happy camper.
avatar
barleyguy: True to a certain point. But also, as a customer of a product in capitalism, you have a ultimate right to decide what to buy and what not to buy, based on any criteria you choose. There are also laws that are supposed to guarantee fair dealing by people selling things.

I agree... bearing in mind that your right to choose what you buy implies a right to face the consequences of your choices, and that what constitutes "Fair Dealing" is another thing that many people have differences of opinion about.
avatar
sk8ing667: Another thing with older games? They generally are cheaper for the same expierence you would have when they came out. Extra money+extra game=happy camper.

Or an even better experience. Many of the games have patches that make them better, or a "gold edition" that comes with all of the expansions and bonus material that would have cost extra at release. Also, most older games can be played at quality settings that would have never been possible when there were released. One of the things I love about GOG is buying a game and setting everything to "very high" instead of fighting with optimizing it to get it to play.
avatar
domgrief: Therefore, in my humble opinion, Fallout 1 is a better game than Fallout 2.
avatar
Prator: The important part is in bold. What is better for you may not be better for everyone, and it's important to make it clear that your feelings are, in fact, your feelings and nothing more or less.

*gasp* You mean that subjective opinion does not equal objective fact? (I feel like throwing a "Captain Obvious" in there). Anyone saying one game is better than another is stating his or her opinion. This should be obvious to anyone. It should hardly be necessary to qualify every statement one makes with a "of course, this is my subjective opinion, not objective fact". Any post would be twice as long, and the forum would be more or less unreadable.
Post edited July 06, 2009 by Wishbone
avatar
Prator: The important part is in bold. What is better for you may not be better for everyone, and it's important to make it clear that your feelings are, in fact, your feelings and nothing more or less.
avatar
Wishbone: *gasp* You mean that subjective opinion does not equal objective fact? (I feel like throwing a "Captain Obvious" in there). Anyone saying one game is better than another is stating his or her opinion. This should be obvious to anyone. It should hardly be necessary to qualify every statement one makes with a "of course, this is my subjective opinion, not objective fact". Any post would be twice as long, and the forum would be more or less unreadable.

Agreed.
(But that quote tag is broken. The quote attributed to me is from domgrief. EDIT: Now fixed, but don't want this to look like a "me too and that's all" post. :-)
Post edited July 06, 2009 by barleyguy
avatar
Wishbone: *gasp* You mean that subjective opinion does not equal objective fact? (I feel like throwing a "Captain Obvious" in there). Anyone saying one game is better than another is stating his or her opinion. This should be obvious to anyone. It should hardly be necessary to qualify every statement one makes with a "of course, this is my subjective opinion, not objective fact". Any post would be twice as long, and the forum would be more or less unreadable.
Partly correct. I mostly take issue with the people who express their "opinions" in an aggressive, almost dogmatic sort of way that doesn't brook any argument or allow the possibility of compromise. It's almost as if they DO take their own opinions to be the truth. Not everyone does that, otherwise there would be no point in labeling the worst offenders as "Elitists."
Also, I'd like to see a super-politically correct forum someday. I think it would be funny.
avatar
Mentalepsy: You seem to be arguing against the assertion that there exists an objective quantity against which the quality of a game can be measured, but I have never heard anyone make such a claim.
avatar
Prator: That's because no one ever does make that claim. It is simply assumed to be true. Tacit assumptions like that are present in all human cultures.
When's the last time you've heard someone tell you that something or other was "Right" or "Wrong" but neglected to explain why? You may find a tacit assumption of objective morality there. Or maybe you've been told that some person is entitled to something; free speech, a money-back guarantee, or anything else. There might be a tacit assumption of natural rights behind that.

Well, people do make claims about objective morality or natural rights all the time, so it wouldn't surprise me that there might be such ideas behind statements like that.
But you're assuming that people talking about their preferences in games, movies or books have similar notions about objective quality, and I've never seen any reason to believe that comments like "System Shock 2 is way better than Bioshock" are anything more than a mildly hyperbolic colloquialism for "I liked System Shock 2 a lot more than I liked Bioshock."
Why do you think a statement like that is meant to be taken as a disclosure of objective fact?
avatar
Wishbone: What are you, made of money? Or are you simply a pirate? Games are not an infinite resource. They are limited by time and money. Many people simply don't have enough money to buy any game they want, at any time they want. Your happy-go-lucky attitude indicates that you have enough money to do just that, or that you, ah, "circumvent" the traditional mercantile channels of goods procurement.
avatar
Prator: I'm not made of money, nor do I pirate anything. I'm not sure how you drew those conclusions from my post. Why would I be on this website if I met either of those criteria?

Well, specifically, it was this little bit at the end. First:
avatar
Prator: That's too bad, but why worry about it?

Where you seem to say that money spent on something of little or no value to you, is a matter of no importance. Then:
avatar
Prator: There'll always be other games, as long as there are people with the imagination to create them.

Again, provided that you have enough money to buy them. And finally:
avatar
Prator: Why not just download, play, and be merry?

Where you seem to argue that games are not things you buy with hard earned money, but simply stuff you download.
That may not be at all what you meant, but that is how I interpreted it.
avatar
barleyguy: (But that quote tag is broken. The quote attributed to me is from domgrief.)

Sorry, it was broken when I got it. I demand my money back! :-D
Fixed now.
avatar
Prator: Also, I'd like to see a super-politically correct forum someday. I think it would be funny.

Only in very small doses, I think :-/
Post edited July 06, 2009 by Wishbone
avatar
Mentalepsy: ...
Why do you think a statement like that is meant to be taken as a disclosure of objective fact?
I base my interpretation on the violence of the delivery.
"I liked SS2 better than Bioshock." -is pretty straightforward.
"2K Games SUX!!! Bioshock SUX!!!! They shoudl just callit BS because it is FUCKING BULLSHIT!!@!@!@!!!@!11!!" -could be more straightforward.
avatar
Prator: That's because no one ever does make that claim. It is simply assumed to be true.

By whom?
avatar
Prator: Hmmm..."Tacit assumptions like that are present in all human cultures." See? Right there! An unspoken assumption of universal human nature! I'd better watch myself...

Hehe, if we're going to be nitpicky about it, it can't really be unspoken, since you claim it quite explicitly. It must be a spoken assumption, then ;-)
I for one, am fine with anyone calling me elitist.
I have my opinions, and I'm more than willing to debate them, but I'm a stubborn fool and unlikely to change them.
avatar
Prator: That's because no one ever does make that claim. It is simply assumed to be true.
avatar
Wishbone: By whom?
avatar
Prator: Hmmm..."Tacit assumptions like that are present in all human cultures." See? Right there! An unspoken assumption of universal human nature! I'd better watch myself...

Hehe, if we're going to be nitpicky about it, it can't really be unspoken, since you claim it quite explicitly. It must be a spoken assumption, then ;-)
By people who loudly hold up their particular game or genre as the "best" of its kind, without properly explaining why, and shout down anyone who voices a differing opinion.
And it WAS unspoken... before I edited my post.