Nah, you are misunderstanding... I based that listing of towns only on my role flavor, not my dislikes/likes and a conclusion thereof Darko.

My role pm mentions Prudence as a friend and part of the only reason I have survived being at such a location. So there is my problem, and no Vitek I am not basing this just on those, I am kinda using own opinion combined with facts I can't avoid facing. And one such fact is having a still alive player mentioned in my flavor as helpful, as opposed to another not mentioned at all - claiming I am mentioned in their's, while Rodzaju stated that I am also mentioned in his Role pm, showing that Joe does far all I can see link role text with other players role text, thus I should have had a mention of Telika if the claim is true if I am to trust the premise of the game.

The darn problem is that I personally suspected Rodzaju more than Telika, but as I am am frequently wrong, it seems to be a logical step to make a choice based upon things I can't decide coupled with personal feelings.

Then of course there is the odd chance that my role has some greater part to play in the overall history.

Say that Telika is my nephew and as such the inspector and me having all sorts of connections (stuff I can't see in my role pm), in that case it would make sense for scum to cozy up and help out, in order to place my role's confidence with them, thus gaining access to a valuable source. But that setting sounds unlikely for a mafia game, hence my above idea.

Other ideas to explain it is welcome.

As for other dislikes/likes, well I cant very well use them can I, when the rule applies.
As for Rozaju contra CSPVG, only works on Rodzaju? Huh? You are aware that CSPVG is on my scum list right? (and yes he is also specifically mentioned in my role pm, but he is also on the list for personal preference). Have begun wondering about a Vitek & Telika consolidation as that would explain the masterful play by scum, but I've saved that notion for later as there is no proof of such.

You are kidding me right?

The flavour text in your PM IS basis of your like and dislike. So you are basing Rodzaju confirmation just on your like.


I forgot you suspect CSPVG, sorry. I knida ignored your reads when you made 2 scum lists.
Why is that you suspect him?

Well as basically any mafia game the facts is the flavor, so naturally I am basing it on the flavor. Since we cannot discuss the other stuff even if it matches flavor.

CSPVG flavor, and the useless ability claimed to be useless from when he claimed - which is somewhat odd. Having a from what I judge fairly powerful scum team, only to give town a reflector, a useless cop, a flavor cop and a jailer - where basically only 2 of them is confirmed and in my mind only two are useful. Compared to assuming flavor again; someone who knows every night...wait.. in my assumption Darko is town, so thats an NK unkillable.. with 4 other powerroles.. and should I include the one you apparently have and Telika's thats 7 power roles..(+3 with scum if they are not part of it) Whats the normal ratio for powerrole amount? Slightly lower I would think, so naturally some of those must not be town for it to make any sense.. 2 already confirmed town (and dead), 1 already confirmed scum powerrole - that leaves 5 (+2 if scum (scum usually have powerroles right? EDIT: Though SPF didn't - still odds are a powerole thats scum) So thats 5/9 that have claimed powerroles.. + 3 if scum - hence 8 out of 9 - Well i find that highly unlikely). So therefor I would think at least one of the currently claimed powerroles (rightly I guess Vitek haven't claimed, but Telika claimed for him) must be scum. Of those we have a thief, a useless cop, an amazing town role/great claim for scum, a very useful town ability/or overpowered to the extreme scum ability and an unknown.

We had a reflector and jailer. And wait, the scum (SPF) that was killed apparently didn't have an ability.. judging by name - hence he carried out killing first, while other used abilities, hence after he was killed one of the remaining scum can't use a role night action.

So which is most likely lying of powerroles - ignoring flavor for now. Telika: Results I guess confirmed by more than one other person? If so role wouldn't make sense for scum team to have, too powerful - assuming it is that role. So Telika can't be scum, thus Joe is just playing with me by not mentioning it. A watcher sees actions, normal role for scum? Well can be both and a very good role for scum - But telika apparently sees all actions.. thats extreme. Do town have enough to make up for that no. So Telika is town? He saw multiple clues out of those he saw clues for 2 dead people, Vitek (both nights), Darko, flubbucket and CSPVG. Out of those he targeted only Vitek and flubbucket where neither had mentioned powerrole before his post. None can confirm results directly, but he asked question to at least show some results. So limited watcher with only single targets? Unlikely or brilliant lie that deserves to be a game winner..

Okay fuck it; Telika is town.

Then Darko, proof gained in regards to CSPVG and P1na saying he was gone - with the addition of nmillar confirmed town jailer. Options he is either truthful or a scum role equivalent.. but there is none really? All other roles for scum would show him at least being there, immunity is there for the godfather role, but doesn't counter all things attempted (jailing and investigations). P1na succeed, jailer failed CSPVG failed. Option for him being a godfather: CSPVG is lying and is scum with Darko. Rate: Possible?
Else Darko is commuter, and a very very unlikely scum - commuter almost always town. Assumption: Joe is crazy and make a scum that can't kill? Impossible even for him -> limited leaving? Odd role, unlikely.

Options:
Darko is town
CSPVG and Darko is scum -> Telika confirms CSPVG target him (assumes?) so CSPVG is either scum or town, but Darko is not scum, since there would be no reason for scum to target him and if town then he was gone hence claim is true -> commuter pro-town role always - even if often false claimed we have checked him).

So darko is town

That leaves:

CSPVG: Scum(then killer) or town(good one)
Vitek: Unknown


CSPVG -> would scum try to kill one who claimed commuter if they already knew given that they would be on the same team, no. Would they have guessed the watcher and just used an night action ability on him(Darko) to fool the watcher.. very unlikely.
So if Darko is town, then CSPVG is town - All assuming Telika is town.

So that leaves Vitek assuming he is a powerrole - and a lyncher (flubbucket - if that can actually be considered a powerrole, but guess it counts).

Flubbucket did something Telika finds good, can't recall what. His target is town, it is not unlikely flubbucket is scum given target.

Most likely scum (in this whole pondering about roles):
Vitek
Flubbucket

That leaves for nonpower roles (as far as we know):
JMIch, Robbeasy(dead), SPF(scum), Rodzaju, RedBaron

Thats 4 town vanilla - with 7 powerroles -minus at least one....

Ratio of females: 3 out of 4 assumed nonpower is female, on male. 1 dead female scum, one likely scum? female, ratio vice not assuming all female scum team. Males make better sense... scum team: 3 + one in the form of amok? Make sense balance wise.
So what is best: 2 females and one male on scum team + one female option(amok) or 1 female 2 males + one female. But wait: Dropping blond hair? I still consider that mostly female, same with handkerchief(don't really see a man with silk handkerchiefs (looking back I see Telika assumed the same)). So most likely scenario: 2 females 1 male, + 1 female in Amok.

Now Vitek is male, flubbucket female both is possible - argh no help there. Vitek not claimed anything other is lyncher (claimed), scum team already had one without powers, so last two should have powers right? (thats would make sense for me in balance). So lyncher makes no sense - but two lynchers on town side (with a possible 4 man scum team) not really either. Argh, so flubbucket lying or have I missed/forgot something to support that he is town, because if he is town then logically Vitek is scum. No wait, P1na is a proven powerole and male, that leaves two males and one female... making males the better odds.

So flubbucket, Vitek and P1na one of them must be scum - of course all hinging on Telika.

So yea conclusion of all this early morning rant: I won't be voting for (until more info as always changes things):
Darko, Telika, CSPVG

Flavorwise: Rodzaju, but the dis can't be trusted explicit if CSPVG is town, so a dear friend is good? Hmm more info required.

Hence that leaves JMich, Vitek, P1na, flubbucket and myself as options, with an addition of Rodzaju again flavor pending.

I know myself I ain't so thats 5 people (with Rodzaju): thats 1/5 = 20% chance of scum, not counting Rodzaju: 25%. No wait, the odds are better as there must be two scum left. so thats 2/5 = 40% chance of scum and 50% chance not counting Rodzaju.

Okay, I am perfectly willing to vote for JMich with those odds (or others, but still JMich was an option mentioned by Telika and Rodzaju and others making him a better fokus point than for instance Darko).

Good, time to vote then:

unvote - vote JMich

Awesome rant, awesome sleepless night - I feel my whole thought process being unclogged. Hope this makes as much sense to others as it did me.

Let me see if I understood the rant correctly.
Too many claimed power roles for all to be town, so let's vote the one who hasn't claimed any role yet? Did I get that right?

Oh, and silk handkerchiefs are used by males as well, those are the ones that protrude out of your jacket's pocket.

Thank you for that rambling post!
It actually helped me a lot.

First of all, it cleared up our relationship.
In my flavour, you are a very rich woman, with me as your heir.
This is why I had assumed we were related.

Since people have started dying, I have been worried sick that you might be killed.
If you die under suspicious circumstances such as these, my inheritance would be at risk.
For me to win, I have to be alive at the end of the game, but so do you.

But I had you pegged as probably scum.
I decided that Joe was a bastard!
I figured that this might be a contributing factor in 2 previous players of this role deciding to quit.

I asked him what the implications of this were.
While (of course) he wouldn't confirm or deny you alignment, he did explain:
IF YOU ARE SCUM I am still town & thus count towards town numbers for deciding the end of the game.
However, for town to win, you would have to die & thus I cannot win.
If scum win, as long as I am alive at the end (and you as well), I do win.

So yes, IF YOU ARE SCUM, Joe IS a bastard :)

Of course, if you are town, this is all much less complicated.
That long post, while not absolute proof, does sound much more like a townie post than a scum one.

So I am giving you townie points for now.
The fact that my pm talks about you & yours talks about me, why would yours NOT talk about Telika if you 2 are related?
Indeed, if he is your blood relative, why would you leave your fortune to me & not him?

My suspicion of Telika is starting to grow....

Here's a thought:

What if Telika dragged you along, rather than the other way round?
Maybe he assumed that, as your nephew, he would inherit & saw a chance to speed the process up....

The latest flavour revelations, coupled with Telika's super power role do seem to indicate that Telika is playing a very ballsy game.
Trying to make it appear that he is too valuable to town to ever be considered for Lynch.
But it is starting to unravel with a flat out denial from Jmich, no back up from Red Baron....

Unvote; Vote Telika

I love these arguments jump all over the place, going from me randomly inventing the background flavor, to me being mafia because of my background flavor - mutually cancelling their original basis as their try to construct their way.

Not to mention the "i can't murder constance because it would cancel a heritage but he probably tries to murder constance because it would bring a heritage". (And yes, best way to accomplish that was to half-clear redbaron instead of, like, murdering him 1st night).

These series of arguments make basically no sense (from "aha, he just invented a super precise random flavor linked to a specific name he knew had zero chances to confirm it, in order to get his role confirmation, because that's how scum randomly decide to build credibility when they have no specific need to" to "aha, according to flavor my character likes this person so that person is innocent but of course this doesn't apply to other character's flavors or else everybody would be simultaneously scum and town").

The annoying thing is that when this perspective is imposed, it's my whole contribution that is turned upside down ("ooh, he suspected that one, that one must be town, ooh he cleared this one, this one is mafia"), and this has wider consequences.

At this point I can't risk to influence votes too negatively, so I can't switch the votes around easily. Just, be attentive to arguments, to how they are articulated with each others, and to what points they ignore (for instance, the previous post about "JMich denegation").

I am told that if Constance should die, my inheritance would be at risk.
I have no way of knowing if you were told the same.
Indeed, if you are scum, murdering for the fortune makes a logical motive.
As for night 1, at that point you didn't know who Constance was (I would assume).

Embellished or twisted flavour is much more likely than purely invented, I would think.

Clearly you & Jmich are at cross purposes, but again, I don't know for sure whether it is you lying, Jmich lying, or a constructed argument to protect you both, if one of you should flip scum....

I have argued nothing about who my character likes or dislikes, but purely the role information that I was given & how that correlates (or doesn't) with the role information stated by yourself & Red Baron.

Why would the law be different in both cases. You mean YOUR inheritance would be at risk is Constance dies, but not other people's ? Logical.

That said, I get no mention of inheritance either. I could imagine (as stated) that Constance is a wealthy and powerful person, as she has "her men" for menial tasks and she can boss around the chief of police, but I suppose that my character, 49 years old workoholic policeman who had to be forcefully dragged out of his work, wouldn't be the one caring most or benefitting most by an inheritance. Heck, if I check from how he reacts to nice free holidays opportunities...

Also, if there was an inheritance plot announced in a mafioso's flavor, I do suppose that claiming family bounds wouldn't be his priority.

Still :

Can you explain what you are referring to, here ?

What I am saying is:
Joe wants to give you a motive, rather than just saying "You want to kill people for the fun of it...".
So you have a wealthy aunt.
IF you can bump her off, as her only living relative, you can expect to inherit.

Now that doesn't work in truth because I'm her heir, but you don't seem to know that.
As an inspector, I would expect you to know about the complications regarding suspicious circumstances, but I would also expect you to be able to figure ways round the problem.
Plausable deniability?

The whole "Did you visit Vitek?" "No I didn't" "Are you really sure about that, because I thin you did..." thing.
Maybe he did & is lying about it.
Maybe he didn't & you are accusing him to cast suspicion.
Maybe it's a staged argument...

So, I'm an inspector and her nephew now. I thought I'm super suspicious because this is not confirmed in Red's flavor therefore it's all a lie.

And I'm probably the one who dragged Constance here, right. Because if she had been the one dragging me here, it would have been mentionned in Red's flavor, while the other way round...

Also, the setting is : lady has wealth, one family member wants her dead because (very logically) he'd get the inheritance, and the other wants her not dead because (very logically) he would not get his inheritance. To me this makes no sense (nor does the "an inspector would know the workaround"). But you know what is interesting in that ?

Your own drives. As the dear friend (also the only one aware of a testament) who is so helpful, and so afraid someone would kill the rich lady for the inheritance, because... because... "then he would not get it" ?

See, my issue here isn't even your random "inheritance won't work if the person, uh, dies, but, uh, it works on other people, but not me". My issue is about the so dear friend even needing such a clause as a justification for being on the lady's side. More than a justification ("me? oh no no no, i just mentionned an inheritance for others, it would not work on me at all"), but even a drive ("i have to protect her at all costs, or else i wouldn't get her money"). Seems that Constance's will is indeed an important motive for your character.

Beyond the legal logic of it (oh noes if she dies the inheritance would not go on me but on someone else because reasons), I don't fully trust how you make your character's greed a "town" thing, while using its mechanism in motive attributions around you. You could possibly be simply accusing others of your own character's motives, picking in your own flavor elements to throw around. This would seem to me a bit more logical and straightforward than your "double standard inheritance for greedy best friends" story, and its contradictory support (flavor not backed up therefore fake but still correct).

You skipped a few posts (and a chart).

What's not working for me here is that you have demonstrated intelligence, analytical ability & deductive reasoning & yet you seem completely blind to the possibilities I am talking about.
You don't believe that 2 different people can see the same thing in 2 completely different ways, with perhaps 2 different biases based on their personal circumstances, desires, fears etc?

This seems like wilful ignorance in order to either cast me in a bad light or to say that anything that shows you in a bad light can only be a fallacy.

"Blind to the possibilities you are talking about" ?

1) I have direct access to my role and flavor.

2) You and Red are all "oh his flavor is not described in mine so it must be a lie", but you're welcome to go all "but maybe things are described from another perspective" when it suits you.

3) It's not about "seeing it a different way". It's about unlikely mechanics. Such as "if she dies then the will is cancelled" or "if she dies then the will applies". I doubt that different characters would have opposite beliefs on that. I am even doubtful about an "if she dies then the will is cancelled", and even more as this being a thing (mentionned at all) for a "caring best friend forever watching over her" : if there was a general inheritance plot -which my nephew character doesn't even know about, but whatever, I doubt that a "good guy" would need this as a motivation ("oh noes they will kill my beloved aunt for her inheritance and if that happens, uh, i won't get mine because i'm her heir, and, something something because"). I'd have expected a "oh no they want to kill her and it is, like, not nice". And trying to rationalise it through some arm race such as "while heir usually get the inheritance at death, my caring character knows that for some reason it's the opposite, but the inspector probably knows that it's the opposite and has a workaround". Add to this a layer of "i'm her heir but everyone else probably assume that they are instead of me", and you get a completely arbitrary overcomplicated mess of inheritance enablement and cancellations that you seem to simply build up on the fly in order to accuse others.

4) Tell me about honesty after your framing of my JMich suspicions in terms of "word against word".

I never said it MUST be a lie. I raised the question that it might be because it seems off to me.
This is where I see you being deliberately obtuse.

I am told that, should Constance die in suspicious circumstances, any inheritance would be held up by investigations, legal proceeding etc.
So I don't want her to die.

I don't know what, if anything you have been told about this.
But I can easily see you being told that you need to kill her for her money.
I would assume that, being a police inspector, you would have some knowledge of the law & would be able to find a loophole around such stalling.
IF indeed you are her nephew & the police inspector.

I'll take a leaf out of your book & present an extreme example.
I have recently watched a TV show about some random guy who has come into possession of a laptop full of sensitive national security info.
The FBI have the brief to recover the laptop & interrogate the guy to find out how he came to have it.
The CIA are briefed that, as the guy has info he shouldn't have, he must be a traitor. They are to recover the laptop & kill the guy.
2 different groups, each with their own motives, both believe they are doing the right thing, but one wants to kill him & the other wants to keep him alive....

I'm not sure what you are getting at.
Are you saying that this is a dishonest interpretation of your exchange?
Because the posts between 1482 & 1491 certainly make it seem that way to me.
In your reveal, you talk about the reasons you believe Jmich did target Vitek, but we have no independent verification of this, only your word, just as we only have Jmich's word that he didn't.

Glad my rant made sense to someone - or gave them sense or something.

@JMich: basically it came down to me not being able to make up my mind flavor wise, to consider the odds in regards to powerroles - which might be considered narrowing down things, to me deciding amongst those I then deemed possible scum from that perspective, where I choose one I already had seen as an option for lynch. But in some way it is also my placing the whole; how much fate to put in flavor on hold, because Telika has masterfully integrated himself as town for me personally, while I am also struggling with myself to make sense of his flavor compared to my own.

As for rich again I can't really confirm that.. I have a mention of me being scared that someone would steal my jewels (more specific it says murderous gangs), but I just figured that was normal old lady paranoia speaking, so can't really confirm if I am rich or not. (again arghh the flavor is darn confusing).


Basically I can confirm: Rodzaju's role is mentioned in my flavor as a dear friend, I have no mention of relatives, there is a fear for jewels, CSPVG's role appears to be disliked by mine for demanding everyone does their part and making accusations.

And since we are revealing stuff, my role is an invalid, with a heart condition -> Hence one reason why CSPVG's role was disliked as it made my role feel guilty for not being able to help.

Hence why I don't really see that as a woman with a lot of control over people nor do I see her as a rich one, but guess anything is possible. Guess the claims by Rodzaju's flavor goes to show that I have not really been given much insight into my own role, other than her being very fragile.

As for the JMich / Telika thing, it was revealed by Telika as a bluff, but he was/is? still one Telika consider scum as well, just not one he is voting for first.