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flubbucket: What I'm having difficulty with is the utter lack of cajones regarding sharing clues, likes, and dislikes.

Is there a man in this entire place capable of deciding something without asking mommy?? All those feigning unity by wanting to build a consensus are accomplishing what exactly???
Taking up more time that could be used to come up with a useful wagon or cases that we might be able to build on?

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Robbeasy: 1. You conveniently forgot to mention I was TOWN - as Miller, it is pretty much the only option open to you. Thge two claims are not comparable.

2. Thats true , on a re-read. Easily cleared up though - Amok, please confirm or otherwise?

3. That will be why i said 'The only thing that worries me is....'

But as I have said, I can't believe that Amok would make such a claim so early, and then compound it by saying he doesn't have a clue....the role and claim makes too much sense to me.

Bah - I can see your point though. I was 100% sure Amok wasn't dodgy, now I'm not so sure...

Did i mention i fecking hate day1?....
1. Not completely comparable, but the general principal is what I was looking at. You came out and claimed, and thus it lead to people being willing to believe you because of how and when you presented your information. He didn't quite come out first opportunity, but he did come out fairly early where he could have hid. That's what I think makes it difficult.

I think the problem is the role doesn't make sense either, when you look at some of the clues that have been put out. They have little to no information and feel more like glorified flavor text then actual clues.

Talking about that makes me reconsider my stance on the clues, if just to see what could possibly be out there, but I think I'm gonna sleep on it before I let my curiosity get the better of me at random.
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SirPrimalform: <snip>
Can we have an actual vote on whether or not it's a good idea to reveal the info?

I'm in favour-ish, but I don't trust Amok. Still, I'll say yes we should.
<snip>
I would be in favour of revealing both clues and likes, although I still don't see the point of revealing the latter. The likes would be useless without a mass claim from everyone, because( as I have said before) it's all very well that someone says I dislike X, but that means nothing to me without knowing who X is. And, as Telika pointed out to me much earlier this game day, a mass claim like that would be detrimental for town, as it would out all the power roles.

Furthermore, I must repeat my opinion that the time for discussing the clues and likes has come and gone. I think that we won't have enough time to discuss whether or not we should disclose the information, reveal our clues and likes, and then still discuss them enough to where we could have puzzled out their meaning. With a a real life day or so left, especially considering activity over weekend, this seems unlikely to happen.

Moderator: Could you prod Zchinque, his last post was on the 12th of January( or at least, that's the last post of his I can find; if I've missed a more recent one, I do apologise).
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flubbucket: What I'm having difficulty with is the utter lack of cajones regarding sharing clues, likes, and dislikes.

Is there a man in this entire place capable of deciding something without asking mommy?? All those feigning unity by wanting to build a consensus are accomplishing what exactly???
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TwilightBard: Taking up more time that could be used to come up with a useful wagon or cases that we might be able to build on?


..................<snip>.....................
You're right. Speculation and conjecture are way better than clues.

I are em bare assed. I will stand over here and fix my make-up.
I count 5 yesses, but since people are being rubbish and not voting (or just posting theirs) we'll never get anywhere so I'll just reveal my clue and be done with it:
Ms Franks wears rouge.
Doesn't seem useful at first glance and could be a red herring. Or maybe it's useful info to help the mafia track down power roles, I have no idea.


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amok: Not that I am aware of. I now feel like I am being set up for some public mockery...
Well I don't understand how your 'power' could be of any use if you can't discuss your results. I don't believe you're a clue sniffer cop thing.
SPF: Although there is a consequence of talking about the clues after day 1, it's only listed as public ridicule. Now, it may be unsporting to do so, but perhaps we could talk about it after day 1. There is, however, the possibility that Joe was talking euphemistically, and 'on pain of public ridicule' could really mean ' I'll mod-kill you violently'.
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CSPVG: SPF: Although there is a consequence of talking about the clues after day 1, it's only listed as public ridicule. Now, it may be unsporting to do so, but perhaps we could talk about it after day 1. There is, however, the possibility that Joe was talking euphemistically, and 'on pain of public ridicule' could really mean ' I'll mod-kill you violently'.
I interpreted as "seriously guys, don't do it" but he just didn't want to paint himself into a corner by saying people would get modkilled (look what happened in Zchinque's asylum game).
I've already done both, but to make it clear I'm in favour of both clues and likes/dislikes.

But as someone has said - you don't have to wait for permission folks....

interested in whether the vote for Bianchi stands - would be nice for MOD to be watching, so close to deadline!!
No great timing this week-end. I'll throw these points in, hoping to not miss a subject.

- I've already developped many times the pro and con of clues/likes. I think individuals should evaluate and decide for themselves what is better to be shared.

- I disagree with robbeasy when he says that clue claim would annoy mafiosi having to come up with something. I think that inventing a clue would be hard for a townie having to do it, but keep in mind how easily a mafioso can invent gratuitously misleading stuff, with or without consequences, check-able or not (not to mention that they know the setting better). Many clues given so far could have easily been invented. One spectacular exemple being, ironically, robbeasy's own statement about the tastes of the NPC.

- This could be checked, though, with a role such as amok's clue-sniffer. But there are as many reasons to believe amok as to not. The neutrality could make sense as a way to offer a town ability without unbalancing the number of lynch requirements. The post-day-1 clue discussion is more problematic - indeed what does joe's sanction imply, in all seriousness. I took it as an interdiction, phrased in a cool way (I still mostly see it as such), but would amok's power work as "privately" as unshared clues, or would he be able to accuse people without them being able to respond on that subject, or does joe's rule simply mean that you've got to decide on day 1 what to share, and are always free to mention clues/likes provided you've mentionned them in day 1 first ?

- We were asked about red_baron. I think that, generally, the mafia wouldn't try to lynch a neutral, even if they fear a town-sided ability. I understand the town-side pessimistic strategy about lynching neutrals on (traditionally catastrophic) day 1, but mafia doesn't have this incentive. They'll more probably try to score instead. Unless there is a wagon on a mafioso.

- Lastly, I was asked about my own ski ability. My own flavor does mention indirectly that I don't ski, so I expected this to be mentionned in other roles. Actually, I expected all players to be sorted in possessing or not some ski basics, with some townie skiers (even if that one slope is too hard) and mafia liars denying this ski ability. I wanted mafia to be uneasy and fear some later info calling out their lie. What I got is nmillar's reaction, that I interpret as completely scummy (elusive answer, then counter-attack, attempt to stop the discussion, accusation of scuminess of whoever would pursue this line of investigation, accusation of diversion, and then, funnily enough, diversion with the weird sudden finger at jmich's genders clue). Right now, nmillar is the one I suspect most to be mafia. And at deadline minus two days, I'd rather officialise it.

vote nmillar

Now, according to my previously stated assumptions, if the wagon on nmillar grows, he's town, if amok gets lynched instead, he's scum. Roughly. Does it make sense.
You're all most probably right about Joe's warning. Perhaps I'm just looking for excuses for amok, as I'm more inclined to believe him than not. His claimed role would make sense within the game's context, if it were not for the fact that we're not allowed to talk about clues from day 2 onwards.

amok: I find it strange that you were so open about sharing your role, but then only gave vague hints as to your role's abilities. Please would you explain to as how your role works. It couldn't be any more detrimental to yourself or town than your unprompted claim.

Robbeasy: As I've stated, I don't really think it's going to work. I though I'd give it a stab and see what happens.

Telika: nmillar has been quite suspicious on day 1. From voting for people simply because they dislike someone to lurking a lot. I do not, however, agree with your last point. Although mafioso would tend to jump on a town bandwagon( and steer clear of voting for their own members), I don't think that a sudden spike in voting for a certain person is necessarily indicative of their alignment. It could just be that said person has acted in an incredibly scummy manner, or that someone has made an argument that convinces the majority to vote in a certain way.
Yeah, forgot other points, at least one.

- If a lynch happens, I'd like zchinque to give us some sort of guarantee on the outcome of his hammering. We will be checking for the consequences, and probably judging him on them. So, telling us a bit in advance what to expect may help us evaluate, in day 2, if it was a mistake. As opposed to just keeping open the improvised "that was/n't me" instrumentalisation of whatever happens...
Oh yeah, I phoned Joe earlier and asked if we could have a vote count but he was making bread at the time so I'm not sure he's still alive even.
Yup, I think his house must have been consumed by the yeast. I'll have to go and check that he's ok.
In hopes of moving past the clues discussion and unto more important matters:
Prudence Eggars is a generally liked person and has a great sense of humour. (a bit of paraphrasing)
I hope this doesn't get her killed.

As for CSPVG's question, I have said I find Red_Baron's behavior suspicious, but only for his quick switching between targets.

@Joe
Can we have the exact time of the deadline? The post only says January 20th (unless I've missed something).
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SirPrimalform: Yup, I think his house must have been consumed by the yeast. I'll have to go and check that he's ok.
he's probably flattened his own head on the table with his rolling pin

he's a very clumsy guy
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CSPVG: amok: I find it strange that you were so open about sharing your role, but then only gave vague hints as to your role's abilities. Please would you explain to as how your role works. It couldn't be any more detrimental to yourself or town than your unprompted claim.
http://www.gog.com/forum/general/gog_mafia_19_a_slalom_mafia/post416