I'm currently going over HijacK's posts, and refreshed the thread.

Care to elaborate how what you quoted is supposed to be "exhibit A" of me defending drealmer7's actions?

Also no reply to my other question to you? Nicely done.

Caught up. Not a lot has happened, apparently.

For me, *&$#^ day, and kinda lucky to still be alive since I should have been t-boned to oblivion this morning driving to a cross-town meeting, and then the afternoon blew up and I literally need to re-evaluate my entire life in the next 18 hours before deciding whether to double down on my $7500 deposit with another $2000.

And again, y'all don't seem to be moving too quickly anyway.

HSL is certainly on fire today - he put in some serious work, apparently.

I'm on my laptop so no AF, but there's a post from HSL quoting RW from the signup thread(?) that says no role flips, just alignment. The OP in this thread, admittedly is a bit threadbare.

lol


1. Yeah, I have no idea. I think I started with two thoughts and just dropped one of them completely.
2. Well, fwiw I'm mostly inclined to buy yogs story (and hijack's), so I wasn't making an argument of what I think as much as trying to forestall the range of objections I thought others might make about what yogs' alignment or motivations really might be.

Point is, it doesn't matter. He says he intends to kill 'x' so voting x versus other options is suboptimal.

But would agree, cristi at one point had covered in pretty good detail why SK wasn't particularly viable, and from what I remember of it I thought she was on point. My take is that inviting lynch is one thing, since you can argue out of that to a point, but attracting an NK wouldn't serve him at all, though perhaps wouldn't be as bad as he might think.

On the factions thing, I kinda blurred over it when it was first brought up (by...Lift?), then the second person (Wyrm?) copied it verbatim - pattern holds. When she tagged on, the pattern shifted and it stood out and it caught my attention and made me look at both her post and go back and look at the prior mentions.

I'm not arguing it's a slam-dunk case by any stretch - you'll note my response was to yogs asking me to confirm it was a 'sure thing' and my point was that it's all pretty careful null except for that one spot where she deviated from an established pattern. But even with that I didn't say "yeah, it's a strong case!" As noted, I think the primary argument here is/was tactical, though that looks different (also weaker) than 24-48 hours ago.

Do think it's notable that if she does get pushed to claim and has to fake it, it's going to be a taller ask on the heels of those two claims. That's true for everyone to a point, but her hesitance makes me curious how natural/complete her claim would come off.

Anyway, the pattern drop may be symbolic of not much, or could be her over-responding to either the faction part, or whatever the specific phrasing of the other part was - not neutral but something like that.

As for Hijack, it is kinda obvious what his full claim is going to be, isn't it? I mean, I've certainly been wrong before. (ahem) But I really don't know what we're doing collectively right now.

Anyway, if RL sorts out a bit, I might check back in an hour or two. Still think Doc is a better choice than anything else with legs at the moment, so not like there's much for me to do here anyway.

Setac airport wifi... On my way home. I've read to this point but not too much to add.

I read the OP (finally) and no mention of partial flips. Where is that coming from?

HSL the "dumb question" was only about the difference between "role" and "role name". I can't imagine what you were getting at there, although I guess my actual role would be "Death Miller Gimped Vigilante". Has a nice ring to it. But as to how "Mafia Hitman" actually gets revealed on death I don't know. That's the only official title I have, so that's what I assume shows on death.

@lift - Hijack's claim is a little different from what I know from my PM, but I don't know what he's holding back. My mind is really blown... And I'm not sure how to take it.

Still think poor doc is the wAy to go

Lot of words, so I'm breaking it up. Starting the timer while I finish reading and writing.
--------------------------------------

Good arguments, bad attitude, huh?

Please name two of them (not all 3). Your choice whether yours is one of the two or not; obviously don't indicate which side it is in.

A couple of lines from Hijack bother me.
1)
(Boop it, Sage! Stop pre-empting me! How am I supposed to show original ideas when you show up and say them first?!)

2)
Same exact powers, huh?


...Muscle does not speak "Lover" to me at all.

(sorry, couldn't help myself)

(Boop it, Yog! You stole my joke! What's the point in playing if I can't even make an original joke??)

One example: throw a pair of masons into the mix, and HSL doesn't have to be scum to know yog's will be disappointed that you aren't mafia. I wasn't necessarily proposing that Hsl is scum, only that his apparent certainty about your alignment was interesting.

...You think people didn't get riled up enough at a second claim of miller, so now you're going to try and throw gasoline on a fire because people aren't taking the situation seriously enough?

Are you trying to get lynched, Hijack? What did you think the outrage was going to do, if not come down hard on at least one of the two out-there claims?

Please provide some examples of Trent's play being suspect. Beyond suspecting your claim as false.

So collaborate. What do you think about the claims?

I think I missed something. How do you see it going? Mass claim? If so, then I'll stand right next to you and not claim too.

I still believe drealmer's phrasing to Gamma was a slip, that's why I asked about it twice. I'm also not sure exactly what you are trying to get at with drealmer. I didn't like his extended absence (twice now) or what I think was a slip on his part, I think he's more than likely scum and would have no issue lynching him (I seem to be in the minority on that though). I also am not sure why my other answer did not satisfy you or what exactly you are wanting. It's simple, I think drealmer is more than likely scum. I don't like drealmer's comment to Gamma, I think it was a slip. I don't like how drealmer again has had extended absence's, it's scummy to me. All I can say is this, if he's not scum then I don't like how he plays or playing with him, he has a poor attitude and rubs me the wrong way, if I had a day vig role I can 110% guarantee you I would have already used it on him.

@bookwyrn yes I saw it going as a mass claim, I really really really dislike role claiming on Day 1 (I made an exception for yog's because I felt he was town and was willing to make an exception, but then it felt like it was going to end up being a mass claim).

I'll again say I have no issue moving my vote to drealmer or gamma, but I don't have any interest in voting docbear.

I hope you realise that your arguments sound quite a bit as piggybacking on the ones yogsloth already made in his claim-post. Also, how that "I didn't think Yog's claim would work" could be read as "but since it did, I jumped in right behind him".


You are aware that it's not a fact for everyone else, yes?


Since I'm not familiar with bike gangs, what is that supposed to tell us? I did a search of "Road Captain" but I don't think I got any useful results.


What cristigale said.


[emphasis added]

I'm currently running an ISO on you, and going through your posts. The only game-related comment you've made about trentonlf prior to the series of exchanges on your claim, is post #203, where you list him as "neutral to slightly town".

At what point up to this post of yours did his play started being suspect? Could you elaborate and point to what is suspect about it?


flubbucket already touched on this, but I'd like to say that the conditionals puzzle me, especially in relation to the constant mention of credence and how important it is to get the most possible from the claim.

I get that a true Miller claim comes with certain disadvantages, more so when it's a second Miller claim. But wouldn't the same arguments be made if it's a fake one in an attempt to persuade people it's a true one?


Well...


Could you elaborate in what way?


Not sure I follow - the mod put two Millers in the game, so that the second one to claim gets screwed? Is that what you're saying? Do you think that the mod deliberately put town in a disadvantage before the game even started? To what end?


Well, you can't really fault people seeing it as piggybacking even at this point.


Just to avoid a misunderstanding - you didn't anticipate that another Miller is out there, that this other Miller would claim before you, or that another Miller existed and would claim before you? If it's the former, I don't quite see what the claim order has to do with anything. If any of the two latter ones, why would you think it less likely they claim before you?


And this may well be a reason for scum-you (fake) claiming Miller this early. Not only to survive longer, but to also get people to read your actions in a more favourable way, even after you die.




Three things about this.

1. The choice of wording is quite interesting [emphasis added] - "the main event", "I'm trying to emphasise". That you try to emphasise, or say that you do, doesn't necessarily mean much.

2. By the time you replied to yogsloth, I had already pointed out a few times the issue of role flips and questioned yogsloth about it (which he kind of brushed off, btw, but by that time he too only mentions the mafia bit), so it can't be ruled out that you took that into account, more so since you prefer to observe. Perhaps yogsloth too.

3. Your initial claim contradicts what you claim in this post [emphasis added]: And there's more contradiction in a reply of yours to Lifthrasil [emphasis added]: The "I isolated" bit is not true at the time you made that post as the only other post you made between your initial claim (post #313) and that reply to Lifthrasil (post #340) is post #314 which is some unrelated comment to flubbucket. You also expect your role to be the result, or at least part of it, upon investigation because of its description, and perhaps more importantly, explanation given in PM. No "I don't know if my role can be investigated", no "perhaps there's a Role Cop, but let's not talk about that".


I'm undecided if I buy it or not. The thing that throws me aback is the force with which Lifthrasil's lasting for HijacK's blood. If neither of he two are town, is it a case of not w/w?

Need to think about this situation, and wait for HijacK's response, anyway.


*crosses fingers this posts without any hiccups, or worse*

lift's 240 just sounds like a bunch of safe shit

that's me calling ppl names? no, that's me describing the nature of his scumness as I see it - pretty much everything you have to say about me is sarcastic +/ overdramatized bs, but, you aren't a focus for today - scumlean is all for now

I'm not feeling the wagon on docbear, seems maybe a wagon of convenience / LHF (low-hanging fruit) - agree with trent's view on docbear actually, but,

not liking trent's avoidance to hijack's clear question regarding being in his position after yog's claim

trent, I understand not liking claims D1 but if they are both true it does make sense for them to out with their claims, though it could have perhaps waited until D2, imo, since yogs and hijack I don't think were in danger of being lynched today and not super likely to get illed Night 1 I don't think?

and now I'm at the point where trent votes himself - this seems like a bad overreaction, don't like trent's play here at all he moves up on the suspect list after all that for sure

could vote lift or trent at this point, I wouldn't be opposed to wagoning sage at this point either, actually

yogs, hijack, bler, HSL, flub, are all off the table

wyrm feels funny to me in most of his posts a bit but probably not good to focus on today, his vote on gamma stinks though and I do think gamma likely has access issues even if he's been able to post on MS at points? (haven't seen him lately) - I saw the modnote where he'll be replaced start of D2 and yah, that is a terrible non-telling lynch today, pings for wyrm going there

I think lift is by far the scummiest still at this point and would be placing my vote back on him if I were current that this point in the game ^ (caught up to my post 376)

posting now, going for a night-walk, and then coming back to finish catching up...yes, yes I am going to get it done! woo

Part 2:
---------

Yes. I massively prefer the slot dead over replaced, because there has been no reaction from it at all. It will literally be a blank slate that can be written however JMich sees fit. Not that I don't like JMich, but I don't want him to get a headstart on seeing the lay of the land before having to talk. He's hard enough to read as it is.

A lynch is the surest way to kill the slot and give us whatever we might or might not get. Alternatively, I'd like to see it a Day late and Yog a bullet short (was that too contrived?). Everyone else leave it alone, Yog blows it away, and we get some use out of it, but Yog already called his role gimped so it isn't as sure. Both are preferable to mod-kill because then we'll know mod-kill didn't mess with the result. Not that I think RW will necessarily mess with the flip if he mod-kills; it just happened in a game I was in once and was kind of rough at the time.

I know someone has talked about a spy setup where claiming causes you problems; might have been RW. I know RW has expressed distaste for D1 mass claims, and after his last game literally exploded on D1, I'm guessing he's tossed some land mines into this setup. As a matter of fact, I know he's tossed some into the setup.

I seem to recall him saying somewhere that people would have to use their brains and figure things out in this game, but I couldn't find a quote when I went looking in the admin and sign up threads.

-----

Hijack, please allow me to present Exhibit A:
And this is after Drealmer has mellowed over time.

(PPE: And boop it Sage, I'm going to find your house and steal your cats if you steal my words again. Or maybe I'll be nice and just kill you in your sleep. :P )
-----

This expansion answer is for Bler [PPE: And Lift] too, for asking the same question:

Why yes, yes I am. Because I have been viewing Docbear in a similar fashion as Trent, except I'm more bloodthirsty than he is. I see Docbear's wagon as a lazy clown car that is full of "Yeah, she isn't posting anything useful". Guess who else isn't posting anything useful? If you guessed Gamma, give yourself a cookie.

Upon lynch, neither of those wagons are going to say diddly squat about the alignment of the people on them, and probably just as much about the people not on them. I've already said my piece about most of the other players, and I knew I wouldn't be able to make a convincing case on the remaining three I'd been willing to lynch because there wasn't anything more than a feeling on them.

And honestly, I'm going to look bad regardless of which wagon I voted. If I'd have voted Docbear, it'd come out as "Wyrm is just hopping on the one thing going" (remember how the middle slots are prime scum slots?). If I'm going to look suspicious for voting either one, or for starting a wagon on yet another player that isn't going to go anywhere, or for not voting at all, then why not just coin flip it? It isn't like you can't read that I'm willing to see Docbear dead, and that I'm more willing the longer she waffles around in spite of the suggestions piling up on how to contribute. And I even know that the self awareness in this paragraph of how my vote is going to be viewed doesn't look good; it simply shows how far down I started reaching to come up with some deciding factor before I quit caring and grabbed a virtual coin.

Last note: If you guys really want to see a claim from Docbear in order to make a decision, then stop screwing around and tell her to claim. She's the only real wagon going atm, in spite of expressed suspicion on multiple other players, so with the rate things are going, she's going to die at deadline unless a sudden fire drill happens. I know it, and if you're honest with yourself, you know it too. If you don't push her to claim soon, then odds are good that we're not going to get one because she's going to be off-line at time of death.

If you need the comfort of running her wagon closer to lynch before asking for a claim, then say so explicitly. I'll hop on to push the vote count higher.

-----

No one else is, so I'll go ahead and say it. Yes Hijack, you're probably right on pretty much every point in 421. The problem is that scum aren't stupid, and one might try to catch a free ride on the Yog-claim train.

Or, and heavens forbid, the scum!pair of you talked during Twilight, joked about claiming mafia flips right at the start, and then stroked your pointy beards as you considered what RW has said about flips and such. Then you worked yourselves into starting this game off right by whipping out your unmentionables, slamming them down on the table, and daring town to call your bluff. Boop man, Yog's claim literally describes a mafia goon (investigates as scum, flips as scum, has a NK that can be blocked in some circumstances).

Point of order: I'm pretty sure you two didn't plan dual miller claims because it is an unnecessarily All-In play, and both of you like to win. If you two did actually do that, then I'm tipping my hat with awe at your sizes.

The longer I think about that counter claim idea, the harder I start to laugh (no offense, Doc). Just the idea of someone going "I'm a miller" and someone else is all "NO SHUT UP I'M THE MILLER". Next thing you know, four different Spartacus' (Spartaci?) burst in and then things get crazy.

Basically. Sometimes it looks like people go on a personal vendetta against him. Maybe it's just me. *shrugs*

Bomb and Bodyguard. With or without modifiers or variation, they fit the flavor. This being said, I wonder if the role names were deliberately chosen to be left for debate.

Didn't he say he's going after someone tonight to off them or something like that? Am I imagining all this talk about getting rid of Gamma? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm living under the impression that he's on the offensive in terms of powers.

I don't know. I don't think they truly understand. Perhaps I am biased in this endeavor, but I feel there's slightly less than what it used to be in terms of number of people seeing the full picture. Did something happen since my last game here?

Relatively low participation with few contributions outside "main event" issues and targets.
Refuses to answer a question, and no, an answer withheld is no answer because there is no guarantee said answer exists.
The amount of discussion he is tackling is close to zilch, thus I think he is playing it safe because he doesn't really know what to do as scum but tackle easy targets.

Oh, would you look at that? I was right. It seems someone does indeed have a personal vendetta against him. *ding* *ding* *ding*

Thank you for finding a polite way to state my feelings on that.

Coroner. Role Cop. Something-RW-Made-Up-That-Reveals-Extra-Flip-Information-When-Triggered.

A hint that maybe you knew more about Bler's alignment than a generic townie would know. Could be scum, could be PR, and interesting regardless. Or could just be me interpreting your word choice as you being emphatic than you actually mean to be.

Forgive me if you already know this: when playing card games, often a round (or hand) of cards of called a trick. I was using an idiom to indicate he'd missed some possibilities (i.e. missed some hands of cards).

There are more players than you, Lift, and Drealmer in the game, and some of those players might have an investigation. So maybe scum!you does want to draw an investigation to use as evidence that you are town. My godfather example was a direct counter to the idea that "scum!HSL woudn't want to draw an investigation"; anything beyond what I was directly countering is beyond the purpose and scope of my example.

And I didn't assign the statement specifically to you. Nor did I say that it was the sole, or even primary, motivation behind her wagon. More than one person mentioned it, and I called the argument itself worthless. A townie that happens to notice someone just recently called them out for being absent might indeed go ahead and reply because a townie doesn't want to contribute to their own lynch. The timing of such a reply is NAI.

-----

And even more posts have shown up. I'm logging for tonight and will read them later. Thanks for the bump, Hijack!

I'm just going to kick us along here. This is, btw, not an argument for or against lynching him but the Road Captain is responsible for making sure other riders stay safe.

Combine that with the 'muscle' comment and I thought it was pretty clearly (imo) teasing bodyguard a while ago. Whether that's really his final claim, or for someone specific or he gets to choose IDK.

Other "muscle" roles might include strongman (as yogs noted), or jailer, or arguably roleblocker or other killing roles. But none of those fit with the road captain or the "close to my boss wink wink" thing.

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, he's soft claiming bodyguard. Do you still want to lynch the miller or not given that he's indicating his role is to die, albeit at night? For one, I mostly believe him. For two, lynching bodyguards has not generally served us well.

Personally I don't - like yogs I prefer doc and by like infinity, but at least let's stop ****ing around with the role questions b/c unless I'm missing something he's pretty much tied himself into that one lane claim and we're all collectively stalling for time.

24 hours from deadline and still no meaningful wagon?

Drealmer with his "must respond to this post from three weeks ago!" thing, and the role stuff and whatever.

There is no personal vendetta against drealmer, to play with a vendetta is a poor way to play. But, if I was given the chance to vig drealmer I would probably do it in any game I played because I would enjoy the game more if he was not in it.

Current votes:
docbear1975 - yogsloth; dedoporno; bler144
GammaEmerald - Bookwyrm627
HijacK - Lifthrasil; flubbucket; trentonlf

Not voting: (JMich or ghost); HypersomniacLive; HijacK; docbear1975; Sage103082; cristigale; drealmer7

Majority has not been reached.

At this point, Gamma is no more. I've heard nothing and it's been 3 weekdays, which doesn't earn a free pass. If JMich will sub, I may extend the deadline to Friday night if he thinks he can catch up in time, otherwise, Gamma will just die as if he was lynched or NK'd.

lol - that is pretty hilarious.



On the vote thing, if town you were over-thinking it. Not sure why. Go back two days ago when I was goading you, she moves to L-4. Then you have a wagon tempting enough for scum to try to push along (if !town-doc) or to counter (if !scum-doc).

That's oversimplifying it, but it's thinking beyond just what your vote says about you, and what you can accomplish. I wasn't even goading you to see if you bit, but b/c the wagon needed someone willing to take a risk and jump on just to see what fell out - and that's not even all the way to lynch, just how other players react.

Instead everybody just...waited. And other than Hijack's claim basically nothing has happened in almost 3 days.

At this point it's basically bupkis b/c we're close. Also, while we haven't had a vote count in a while I'm pretty sure Hijack has as many/more votes as doc at this point.

I summoned the vote count, clearly.

I can give JMich the short version:

Nothing nothing nothing
Yogsloth makes crazy claim. He's a killing Miller! Some believe it, some don't.
Hijack makes similar crazy claim. He's a non-killing Miller! Small world, eh? Some believe it, some don't.
People talk about sage's new kitty.
nothing nothing nothing RRAAAGE nothing nothing

There, now he's caught up enough!

Since I'm now all researchy (on things RW has said in the past in other places), the signup thread OP says:

"initially it will be faction flip only (excepting any abilities that alter this rule) which may disturb some people but that's okay since I'm a jerk. "

Since I've pretty much got a monopoly on dickishness going, the important thing is that RW is clearly staying on his own turf there.


Anyway, since I already know what I think, I guess there's no point hanging out talking to myself much longer here.