Ah, you totally caught me. Not. Are you sure you're not projecting your own scum-game weakness onto me?
Please, I'd like to think that my scum-game is a tad better than getting all frozen, and not bus one of my scum-buddies if it looks like one's going down. Think about it for a moment - if ZFR, cristigale and I were the mafia team, and they were in the limelight for the better part of D1, why would I do something so stupid at EoD that I'd end up not only getting suspicion but also clearly connected to them?

/in b4 Lifthrasil comes back with WIFOM and all that


Are those Caps Lock supposed to intimidate me, or convince me of your town-outrageousness? Try harder.

I didn't wait until after the deadline to 'vote', as you (and GOG's crappy forum software) would have everyone to believe. You weren't even here at the time, so allow me to rebuilt the timeline for you.

In post #548, the mod told us we had 45min left. At that time:
- ZFR (post #550) starts a lynch-wagon on flubbucket who was sitting on exactly 0 votes at the time;
- Bookwyrm627 (post #553) wants to CFD elebutterfly (who as himself had already pointed out had received a single RVS vote) yet not only doesn't he start that wagon but also unbrigs her and brigs cristigale in her place even though he's been on her rear end for the better part of D1, and finally pulls a Pontius Pilate while bringing the use of the brig mechanic forth again.

From there and until the 30min mark (post #564), crstigale, sitting on Vitek's lonely vote (post #403), receives one from trentonlf (post #562), and between that and the 15min mark (post #583), another one from flubbucket (post #569) and one more from ZFR (post #571), bringing her to L-3, while Damnation and JoeSapphire discuss ZFR's claimed flavour name.
At the 10min mark (post #589), I'm still debating with myself where to put my vote. I tell JoeSapphire that I'd go either way but that we need another vote (post #590), and Damnation replies to me that he prefers cristigale, but is also willing to go for ZFR (post #593).

Around, or just before, the 5min mark (post #595) cristigale makes post #594, which I read as her alluding to a claim that she expected to get her off the hook. Damnation hops on her wagon with that eyebrow-raising preface (post #597), which flubbucket and I commented on, but she refuses to progress the game until someone plans to put her at L-1 (post #598), the wording of which is interesting, and more on it later.

I like none of this, so after commenting on Damantion's post #597, I quickly decided to go for ZFR and voted him (post #606) without refreshing, seconds (I assume based on the timestamps at the time and the sequence of our posts) after JoeSapphire (post #605) moves to cristigale, while the EoD has already been declared (post #604).
GOG's crappy forum software doesn't take one to their post like it used to, and when I scrolled down, I noticed that the mod declared the EoD in post #604, while all of posts #602-606 had the "now" timestamp.
You could probably ask how I can be so certain about those timestamps - it's because I couldn't believe my eyes at the time, and was kicking myself through the next day (Thursday) for taking too long to make up my mind; I really thought those last 3-4min hadn't expired yet when I placed my vote.

I understand ZFR self-preserving on cristigale (the attempt to get a flubbucket wagon rolling not so much), I also understand, up to a point, trentonl'f and flubbucket's votes, but the attempt to make a viable crisitgale wagon with something like 15min left, and cristigale's allusion to her wagon's fail at the 5min mark...
This isn't MU, there's no "the player with the most votes is served for lunch" mechanic, and neither our culture nor the crappy GOG forum software lend themselves to such plays that close to deadline.

Say we got her to L-1 in time. She claimed something some of us believed; we unvote her. What then? Wouldn't we be exactly where we ended up being? Worse, we didn't believe her, lynched her, and she flipped whatever she had claimed. Would that have been better?

As I already said, I have a fair share in that epic fail, but I don't think I'm not the only one.

Moving on to other posts (haven't refreshed yet).

That makes no sense. SirPrimalform has already claimed so what would it matter if flub answers that? Whether anyone believes SirPrimalform or not is up to each person, but saying "Don't talk about his role" after he's claimed is pointless.

You need to quote Flub if you want him to get that notification.

It would matter because flubb, in stating that he was blocked, would also reveal that he has a PR. A vanilla usually doesn't notice when he's blocked since there is no action to block. You should know that.

Do we have to spell it out? Because it would be a PR claim on Flub's part.

Probably not. If our history is any indicator, you'll be all over me sooner or later. Just like HSL. ... Must be my four arms or something. :-)

That's possible. Between a non-native speaker who has mostly learned British English and a US native speaker, misunderstandings happen. But still, I have the impression that she is scummy. But I would like to have a reply from her before I decide whether to vote her or HSL.

@HSL: yes, maybe I am projecting my own past failure as scum on to you. You probably refer to the game where I hesitated too long to bus a buddy and got outed as a consequence. Maybe that's where the idea that you may have made a similar blunder came from and I still think it's possible. You're not immune to errors after all and if you're town, the fact that you didn't vote in your 'we have less than 5 minutes' post becomes an even worse error. I know that you don't like to vote and always vote late, but this case was extreme. So, knowing that you are a competent player I prefer to believe that you are scum who screwed up a bit then to believe that you are town who screwed up a lot.


One more thing about cristi: we know now that there was a 'traitor' (Miller) in the setup. And cristi asked about sleeper agents quite early. Maybe she IS a sleeper agent, like the 'Mafia Traitor' role, and that was her way of letting the other scum know?

Well. I'm off for now. It's too hot and too humid here and I have the feeling that my brain melted and is running out of all my pores. I'm going to jump into the sea for a bit. CU later.

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle - flub may have a way to share, or may not, depending on mechanics and flavor. Sorry, flavour.

flub should answer or not answer as he sees fit. /shrug

My comment to mod when I got back on later to read that EOD: "That was either a catastrophe, or sheer magic. I haven't decided which."

While I would rather have had the flip, I think we should be careful of assuming it was a fail. As much as I tried nagging people as early as Sunday to act soooooner than waiting til deadline, EOD was a mess, but it appears to have been an ...earnest mess.

That said, the real lesson here hopefully the lesson learned for D2, is maybe start consolidating/compromising a bit earlier than the final stretch so there's time for assessment, etc. Maybe everyone needs to be a little less...reluctant ;)


Maybe. Maybe not. Depends on the mod/flavour. Though it occurred to me to go back and look at the D2 opening - no real flavour at all to the death. Just "murdered." /shrug So perhaps you are right. You presumably know.

So....can you elaborate on your decision making process a bit? Given 12 options, why flub over the field?

Also, I don't know your alignment, but you do. I'm not following your read on ZFR. What are you saying about your view on his alignment, and how does town!you read D1 and esp. EOD in light of either a dual T/T wagon scenario, and if you think he might be toasty, what dynamics come out of a T/W scenario.

I'm assuming you actually thought about that N1 and maybe re-read some players through that lens/lenses, so....please, share. Whatcha got cookin'?

Given the info available to you specifically, I guess I'm expecting more than "It was all so confusing these 6 players are IDK and I voted flub because he's flub." Or am I being unfair, iyo?

Well I feel stupid, Didn't even cross my mind when I asked flub. I was just trying to verify if SirPrimalform was possibly lying or not.

I'd like to start where I finished yesterday. HypersomniacLive, Damnation, you left your vote till (in the case of HSL, literally) the last minute. So I ask:

What where you expecting??

Please answer, this is not a rhetorical question.

Unlike vitek, both of you stated that you're not against my wagon. So what is it then? I'm trying to put myself in the mind of a player in your position. "It's almost midnight. 15 minutes left. I know because Poppy keeps reminding. There is a wagon at L-2, which I'm not against. That wagonee claimed vanilla townie. Vanilla! It's obviously very bad for town to go to a no-lynch. What should I do now? Let me think... Let me think... I KNOW! I'm going to wait for 10 more minutes. Brilliant! That's clearly the best course of action to take! Hooray!".

Since I don't see a townie!HSL thinking this way, and since none of the two of you are new in this game to put this as a mistake due to inexperience, I reach the logical conclusion that you must be scum.

vote: HypersomniacLive
brig: Damnation

PS. Written before I read any D2 posts. Going to read them now.

The "I need to go out soon" vote count.

Lynch:

cristigale - 1 (trentonlf)
HypersomniacLive - 1 (ZFR)

Brig:

ZFR - 1 (Lifthrasil)
Damnation - 1 (ZFR)

With 12 active players, it takes 7 votes to reach a consensus.

I wouldn't go as far as that.

There are a number of 'logical' NK options (obviously depending on who's town or scum, these all assume the target is town);
1) Declared PR - Takes out a town PR. But SPF was a lead wagon and roleblocker can be an anti town utility. Assuming at least one scum didn't get any heat (and be a likely target for said blocker) they can still perform NK with SPF alive and hopefully lynch him.
2) Potential town PR - cristi or flub. Both had wagons, both had possible chances of being PRs but also high chance of being the target of town PRs or the lynch.
3) A non suspicious townie player - Doesn't give much away, removes someone who is unlikely to be lynched.

So scum chose 3. Vitek (as far as I remember) wasn't really called out or held in suspicion by any one. He led cristi's wagon, which could be WIFOM (cristi wouldn't kill him as it would draw attention to her so she did, or scum did it to make town cristi look bad). So they could have chosen to remove a town PR or one of two possible PRs but they chose the option that still left all the doubtful players in the field. I think that means scum are clever and went beyond the obvious options of PRs to choose the 'better' kill.

Haven't got a lot of time so I'll leave it at that, I'll answer bler's questions in a bit (or tomorrow if I don't get a chance tonight).
I think we should take a good look at the three (or was it four?) wagons from yesterday and see if we can learn anything. Were scum staying off the cristi and ZFR wagons to try and save them? It would be nice if it was as easy as that.
Or were scumming pushing all wagons equally? Were some players on most wagons but avoiding one?
I'll try and get some time to do some analysis tomorrow but I'm working so no promises.

My PM was very light on information about Flub but gave me some insight into how my power actually works. Surprisingly it's not bonking/drinking related like people speculated. You're right though, I think I have played in a game where the mod sent flavour PMs to VT when they were blocked.

I targeted Flub for exactly the same reason I voted to brig him yesterday. His play has been kind of anti-town, especially when pressed on faulty logic about the brig. His response to being pressed was "Go on then, lynch me!" (paraphrased). My current read is that he's some kind of anti-town neutral (or possibly very ballsy scum). I blocked him because you don't really get neutrals without powers.

When talking about the dual wagon scenario, are you talking about me and ZFR? Well I find it interesting that the two people who I had pegged as scum are the only two to have stayed on my wagon after I claimed, namely ele and Book(s). I'm on an Android browser so I can't be bothered to go and check, but were either of them ever on the ZFR wagon? Or did they hop off once it started looking viable?

If ZFR is town then I'm not sure what to make of those two sticking on my wagon after everyone else backed off (long term OMBHS for me having them on my scumlist)?. If the three of them are scum it becomes a bit simpler to understand - I would guess they thought it a bit early to start bussing people and hoped my wagon might pick up. In this hypothetical scenario I have no idea why they wouldn't then jump on town!cristi though.

Leaving my pal adaliabooks for last (*waves*).


Assume cristigale needed to false-claim. Do you believe that she'd leave it to the very last minute to come up with a believably sounding one, especially when attention kept returning to her during the whole of D1?



That's what I thought when I saw Vitek was the NK.


[emphasis added]

Just to be absolutely sure I follow you - the part I highlighted refers to both SirPrimalform and cristigale still being alive?


You don't, but do you "invite" more votes by saying what she did in post #594 at the 5min deadline mark? She had two people (Damnation and me) that had just said they could go either way. Why not try to swing them over to the claimed VT wagon? At the time it was still doable. Instead she goaded with post #594, followed by post #598; that was like 1-2min after the 5min mark.

I find that all very peculiar, it gave me a feeling that she expected her wagon to fail as soon as she claimed, if not as soon as she alluded that her claim wouldn't be VT. If that was town!cristigale's way of swinging the votes over to ZFR, I have to say it was quite a big risk, as evidenced by Damantion's and (not-counting) JoeSapphire's votes. Perhaps town!cristigale had another goal altogether with all that, and either was counting on time running out on us, or also miscalculated how much time we actually had left? But I can also see it coming from non-town!cristigale in order to escape both the Lynch and the NK, and maybe make it into the trusted pool; I'm not convinced by that post #610 as being genuine town-outrage for the frak up. Very interested to see what she has to say.



You know what they say about assumptions, right?

Assuming everything had still played out the same way, I don't think I'd have switched over; cristigale's goading gave me pause (I could then, and still can, read her actions from both sides), and Damantion's reaction gave me a serious wtf. If we had more time, I'd most likely be all over you for following Damnation, and try to convince you both to switch over to ZFR.

That sure is a firm stance you're taking. =D


With potential targets as "town" roleblocker and cristigale's "I need time to claim" role, I'm surprised at Vitek being chosen.

Roleblocker is frequently a mafia role and as such should not allow a claim of town to go unchecked.

Why is Vitek dead and SirPrimalform and cristigale still alive?? I don't think these two are town.


Vote: cristigale

I'd say I'll look forward to it, but we both know that would be a lie and town shouldn't lie.

I was going to add that as I was in a rush to finish that last post I left out the option of various targets being scum, but flub seems to have covered that more succinctly then I ever could so I won't bother.