Less scummy?! How dare you sir! I shall have to try harder ;)

I wouldn't expect you to let me off the hook, particularly just because I've had a personality transplant for a bit.

Yep. That was my assumption. Otherwise the "I need time to (fabricate a) claim" doesn't make sense. If she were town, she wouldn't have needed time for just stating her role. If she had had a perfect false-claim prepared, she wouldn't have needed time either. So, that leaves only the conclusion that, once she felt the heat, she wanted to prepare the 'perfect claim', for whatever reason, but needed time for that.

Yes, it is possible that she has some town reasons for wanting to fine-tune her claim. What to leave out for example. But I get the impression that she rather has scum reasons for that stalling she did.

Concerning your screw-up, you can wriggle all you want. I think town-HSL would have voted in that post where you wrote that 'we have less than 5 minutes'. Just to make sure that we don't go to no-lynch. To me it looks as if you, just like your buddy cristi, were stalling.


No, I wasn't present. I was in bed. I'm just judging based on the absurdity of writing: "Hey, we have less than 5 minutes left!" ... and not using that very post to vote! That is willfully risking a no-lynch. Maybe it's just HSL's compulsive behaviour that makes him want to always be the last one who votes. But, as I explain, to me this error of HSL makes more sense under the assumption that he is scum than under the assumption that he is town. Do you disagree?

Well if you'd answered "I wasn't wearing a hat when I did the night kill" that would certainly have gone a long way to making you appear more scummy!

That is a very bold stance to take. Kudos for your bravery on that controversial issue ;)

Well...I confess I was hoping for more, but it's something I guess.

Well...I confess I was hoping for more, but it's something I guess.

I jest only slightly - that is exactly how I feel about the two people I was hoping would be a bit more into... elaborating their views.

Considering you're likely to be on the menu, I really was expecting a bit of a broader world view of D1 and where you would go D2. Perhaps you were just enjoying your weekend, but it kind of makes me think you're just picking up where D1 left off - on defense and waiting to be pushed to claim.

If that is the case, and you are town, don't you have any concern that town is going to fritter around for the better part of D2 before reaching that inevitable point? I guess I don't view it as productive, though perhaps I'm confusing that with proactive.

1) Funny - the things that you say are bugging you in D2 are the things that bugged me D1. While I'm not proud of continuing to be a smurfhole to him, I think I've just come around to the MU view that "bad play != scum play." What's the motive/agenda/whatever for scum!zfr surviving D1 and coming out with an attack that is a) not particularly well-based, and b) pissing in the wind anyway?

So sure, it's bad play. /shrug

2) That joke I do remember - that was quite funny. ;)

Thanks for compiling that. Though as for the thoughts part, in line with your prior argument about the NK, without knowing anything more than Vitek (and one's own alignment)...it's pretty speculative.

I would absolutely agree that I defended cristi D1. D2 I would say my only defense of her has been that the "stalling" angle strikes me as meh if not deeply suspect, having been present for at least a chunk of that time. In the exact same way I would defend (and have) Joe/HSL for their last 10 minutes. It was a mess independent of any single player.

But yes, I'm aware that scum!cristi flip probably looks bad for me. I would note, the thing I know that you don't is that it's one directional - when I flip town it won't tell you anything about cristi's alignment. Much the same as Vitek's flip doesn't actually tell us anything about cristi (attacked) or flub (defended).

Probably irrelevant considering she may not outlive D2. /shrug I would say, as above, I kinda expected her to have something more to say than she has. So while she wouldn't be my top choice, I'm not averse to a cristi wagon at this point.

I'd say, probably prematurely since ele hasn't even made an appearance, there's only 4 players besides myself I'm set against lynching today at this moment on events to this point, and cristi is not on that 'no' list.


So very limited translates to "guess I won't just follow up at all"?

adalia does know wyrm (meta, certainly), they share a pm, and I'm unless I'm mistaken adalia said something about the two of them chatting before wyrm absconded. You could certainly ask...something, one would think.

1) That only holds if you ignore the laws of spacetime. Having even the briefest answer requires thinking, typing, posting, and hoping nothing changes in the gamestate by the time you hit submit. And for me, even true-claiming I would probably have to check my PM first lest I say something hastily that later gets my lynched for LAL on X-oxamination. On the clock, every one of those seconds count. Say town!she writes the post and claims and in that time two people hammered ZFR - her claim had no benefit, and gives scum more info going into nightfall.

You don't just magically make thoughts appear instantaneously on the page fully formed.

I will absolutely grant that you COULD be correct. But honestly, even if she turns out to be scum I suspect she would tell us post-game that you were right for the wrong reasons. /shrug

2) Yes, I disagree. Like I think I said, I had the luxury of walking away because I was already on ZFR at L-2 and not inclined to fire drill to a player I wasn't particularly interested in nor aware of how we'd reached that gamestate. But before I gave up just trying to post anything was nerve wracking. While you are correct that HSL could have been stalling, a) that only really makes sense if both cristi and ZFR are buddies - otherwise you just commit to either busing or voting the other (hard, but not thaaat hard), and b) while time was tight for everyone, only town is wrestling with the complete lack of info.


And...I spent way too long on this when I should have been getting to the office and errands :(

Not at all, it's just hard to expect proper answers to questions like "What did you mean when you said this?". I have no intention of letting Adaliabookwyrms off the hook just for waking up as a different person today.

EBWOP - hmmm...apparently should have proof-read the last post before putting it up. Few typos and a missed comma that could have added clarity. Ah well.

Ok, so, I'd still like you to talk more about what you take away from D1, and how you would suggest proceeding from here.

e.g. Without getting off onto the tangent of whether you were delaying/clarifying at EOD since it's noise, what iyo should town do with your claim-not-claim now?

And I think I've pointed to my biggest question. You gave people crap, arguably reasonably in the moment, for not finishing off a claimed VT, and for squeezing you into an a difficult position re: whether to claim or not. Fair enough on its face.

But how do you square that with sitting on flub for all of D1 even after it was clear that was almost certain to remain dead in the water? Shouldn't town!cristi have been doing...something to help town avoid that EOD?

From my pov it was fairly predictable and at least partly of your making.

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Rein it in. How is adalia supposed to survive a withering x-examination like that? Unfair!

But seriously, if you're suspicious of the slot you can ask basic questions like "In post xxx, why do you think bookwyrm did/said whatever?" and then, like, judge the response accordingly.

You've already claimed. And with a role that at least in theory is as dangerous as helpful to town. The way to demonstrate towniness is by, like, actually contributing and solving and giving insight into your POV, isn't it?

You just like, took an already low bar for questioning adalia, and lowered it further.

ok - seriously going to work now. have fun

RIP Vitek, it was lovely while it lasted. Worth pointing out that this flip is confirmation that flavour role is not necessarily indicative of town/mafia alignment. Baltar is a scumbag but he flipped town... maybe I need to watch to the end of S4 to understand why..! :)

I wrote the following while Night was still in progress, so I post it here now before catching up properly. I skimmed everything that's been posted since D2 start and I still think it's worth posting, though some points have doubtless already been addressed.

---

Total and utter agreement with ZFR in #621. What the frak... Ironically, this is not how the human race is going to survive... The thing that makes me really frustrated is that we didn't have to let it go on until the deadline. I need to read-through again and see who, if anyone, put that idea into our heads.

Hypersomniac the main culprit in the no-lynch, IMHO. I updated the ol' voting tally spreadsheet. Hyper voted ZFR RIGHT on the deadline in post 606. Hyper's last vote previous to this was placed in, if you can believe this, post 20. Hyper unvoted this RVS vote for trenton in post 148 but hasn't placed one. single. vote. since. There were some long involved posts from you, keen to discuss theories and suspicions, including posts right at the deadline, but... still.

..... hmmm. HMM! Okay the lack of lynch wasn't specifically your fault, but that assurance really stands out as odd now, in light of your reluctance to vote.
and:
????!!!!??? Then why didn't you vote?! D: (Pre-post edit, I see ZRF also asked about this but I was reading to fast to properly parse the reply, apologies for the echo, but I'm including it as evidence of my thoughts.)

Also as ZFR pointed out, Damnation wasn't helping:
How do you consolidate these things? (Again, I totally understand being sleepy, but why not make a vote, for either SPF or ZFR, if a mislynch is better than nolynch?)

And:
?! *facepalm*
- What about ZFR's vanilla claim convinced you that it was a bad lynch?
- Why were your suspicions of cristi not worth a D1 lynch?

Trenton stands out a little in hindsight too for post 500:
I dunno, is it weird that I can read this like a subtle, jubilant, if pre-emptive, "mission accomplished" ? What made you say that, trenton, at that point?

Especially considering this, previously in post 468:
From here, that looks almost psychic.... Particularly as it was you, sir, who started the 3rd wagon on cristi in post 562.

Look, there was grounds to lynch ZRF, though they weren't ones I agreed with and I do actually believe his claim. He claimed vanilla, which is not grounds to withhold a lynch on D1... What seems to have happened is someone started a 3rd wagon, instead of giving ZFR's one a good shove when Damn and Hyper stalled everything. trenton started it in 562. I'll figure out all the vote swings on that later.

vote Hypersomniac
brig trenton

Welcome adalia!

More to come this evening.

The problem I have with the end of day with Hyper (or Damnation probably too) as scum is that it only makes sense if cristi and ZFR are both scum. Even if that was the case they could probably have hammered SPF (though obviously denying a claim would have looked suspect).
If either cristi or ZFR are town there is no reason to not vote them and finish off.

I personally can't see ZFR and cristi particularly being a team together, they both voted and pushed each other at the end in a way I wouldn't expect if they were scum together.

hahaha... absolutely my fault. Sorry! It's very bad form to mess with other people's quotes. I WILL NEVER DO SO AGAIN.
I'm just catching up but I'll say this now.

Not having watched the show, scumbag or not he was human right?

Yes. He was. A human who flip-flopped a lot between both camps and was in love with a Cylon.

@bler: OK. Maybe you're right and cristi needed time for different reasons. But that 'needing time' sentence isn't all that makes her scummy. She waved the 'sleeper Cylon' idea around without any hint on one being there. Maybe that idea just comes from watching the series. But maybe she is a sleeper herself and was signaling to scum. And she wasn't without reason one of the main suspects Yesterday.

And about HSL, yes, the entire: 'he was stalling to protect his buddies' idea falls apart if either cristi or ZFR are town. And right now ZFR doesn't look that scummy anymore. But he may be acting. Of course it would be very much luck to flush out so many anti-town roles in one swoop. So maybe I'm wrong. But in any case there is now a tangle of correlations and I think if we get a flip from one of them that may tell us something about the others too. HSL and cristi are both scummy. Cristi is, in addition, anti-connected to flubb. So from a strategic point of view it would be better to lynch her, if one rates the scum-likeliness of HSL and cristi the same. But I'm not letting HSL off the hook yet. Maybe I'm tunneling again, yes, but I think for once I am tunneling on the right target.

OK, as you wish.


HSL, forget 5 minuteses, cristis and bad forum software. At that moment in time when I made my vanilla claim. Or rather a few minutes after it:
- There were 40 minutes left. More that enough time to make vote, yet not enough to allow us to dilly dally.
- My wagon was at L-2. It was the only viable wagon since SPF's was coming apart.
- No indication that another wagon is to be formed.
- I claimed vanilla.
- You, by your own admission, had nothing in principle against voting for me (unlike vitek and trent for example).

So why didn't you vote for me then? Can you anser that, HSL? How is it, given the above conditions, a townie play to do anything but vote me? And why do you think my attack is too agressive, adalia, or not particularly well-founded, bler?

That does rather fit with him being a town miller then. He's a human (therefore town) but untrustworthy (thus miller).

I can see where you and Lift are coming from but it kind of feels like a distraction to draw attention away from the end of day yesterday.
Sure Hyper does bear some of the blame for the no lynch but the whole thing was a mess and pushing Hyper as if he is the only one with anything to do with it comes across a bit strong to me.

I mean, if you didn't you wouldn't be tunneling, right? ;)


Heh, there you go!

I will say, I'd be surprised if you got a serious HSL wagon going, but I'm often surprised. I'd mea culpa, but would note this is a stronger argument than you made at the time you voted. Sometimes teasing what you're thinking can be helpful; sometimes, though, you just have to lay the whole pile on the table.

wb

but...still no damnation...

Good point.


Well, I still disagree with both of this things, but...I'm inclined to think she's well into must be sorted territory. Hoping her next appearance will be more enlightening. /shrug


Here's kinda where I'm at at the moment:

Not voting:
elebutt
HSL
Joe
(also, Vitek, self)

Not particularly interested in:
adaliabookswyrm
zfr
flub
_______________

mildly interesting:
trent (on the fence)
spf

quite interesting:
Liftrabbit
cristi

AWOL
Damnation