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Nintendo has always erred on the side of caution when it comes to houshold adoption rate and material someone would perceive as offensive. It's worked well for them for awhile, stay silent and avoid. Unfortunately for Nintendo not saying something or not offering an option can speak just as loudly as a person shouting. I'm sure they didn't intend to offend but they will have to make the adjustment with time. For me it's ok if a story or game doesn't represent all demographics of humanity. I mean you can only fit so many characters into one story or game.
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monkeydelarge: I wasn't talking about all military personnel. I was talking about the hardcore Christians in the military. Yeah, I know mainstream Christians probably wouldn't mind seeing two gay people French kiss at work. I was talking about the Christians who take the bible, seriously. No matter,, how much we think they are stupid, they are still human beings. They shouldn't have to see what they don't want to see at their place of work. People shouldn't be French kissing at work in the first place, gay and straight...
Simply mentioning their husband or wife in passing would be enough to set them off in most cases. It’s certainly enough to aggravate half my family that someone that’s out of the closet has the gall to show themselves in public even if nothing is mentioned about their sexuality.

Straight couples tend not to stick their tongues down each others throats in the work place. I see no reason why one would assume that normal same sex couples would do such a thing.

Tolerate = accept or endure (someone or something unpleasant or disliked) with forbearance.

Just because you don’t like someone doesn’t mean they should automatically have less rights.
Post edited May 10, 2014 by MasterFoobar
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monkeydelarge: I wasn't talking about all military personnel. I was talking about the hardcore Christians in the military. Yeah, I know mainstream Christians probably wouldn't mind seeing two gay people French kiss at work. I was talking about the Christians who take the bible, seriously. No matter,, how much we think they are stupid, they are still human beings. They shouldn't have to see what they don't want to see at their place of work. People shouldn't be French kissing at work in the first place, gay and straight...
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MasterFoobar: Simply mentioning their husband or wife in passing would be enough to set them off in most cases. It’s certainly enough to aggravate half my family that someone that’s out of the closet has the gall to show themselves in public even if nothing is mentioned about their sexuality.

Straight couples tend not to stick their tongues down each others throats in the work place. I see no reason why one would assume that normal same sex couples would do such a thing.

Tolerate = accept or endure (someone or something unpleasant or disliked) with forbearance.

Just because you don’t like someone doesn’t mean they should automatically have less rights.
It's really not possible to have a discussion about this unless you've read all my posts under this topic, unless I repeat myself and I don't feel like doing that. If you read just one post and jump to conclusions, most likely your conclusions will be false. Just to make things more clear though, this whole conversation started after I said I think don't ask, don't tell is a good way of dealing with this issue. Then ever since then, I've been defending myself as if I'm living in medieval Spain and someone accused me of practicing witchcraft... GOG general discussion = land of paranoid social justice warriors... No, I'm not against gay people. No, I don't think the military should be only for straight people. No, I don't think just because someone is gay, they will openly be gay at work. This will be my last post in this thread. It makes no sense, that social justice warriors see me as a suspect to interrogate... Maybe because this thread has no homophobic posts, my posts are the next best thing due to my neutral way of looking at things? If I'm not with you, then I'm against you? That seems to be the case...
Post edited May 10, 2014 by monkeydelarge
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hedwards: Sorry yes.

How is that not calling them bigots? Only bigots give a crap about whether that guy over there prefers to sleep with men or women.

As far as religious Christians go, it's still ignorant bigotry and it's not even representative of mainstream Christianity any more. Most folks recognize that the Bible has nothing at all to say about the subject of homosexuality.
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monkeydelarge: I wasn't talking about all military personnel. I was talking about the hardcore Christians in the military. Yeah, I know mainstream Christians probably wouldn't mind seeing two gay people French kiss at work. I was talking about the Christians who take the bible, seriously. No matter,, how much we think they are stupid, they are still human beings. They shouldn't have to see what they don't want to see at their place of work. People shouldn't be French kissing at work in the first place, gay and straight...

PS
Everyone is a bigot..so all military personnel = bigots.

bigot - a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.
People who take the bible seriously must also study it's passages seriously instead of hanging off a single verse and then hating a faction of humanity over it. It's been my opinion that Sodom and Gamorrah is more about rape and a group of people that would not help the weak and lust after angels rather than a punishment for being homosexual. As for PoA's well if they are too over the top no matter who's doing, it would get annoying. Remember God is the judge, not man. Not to say you can't have an opinion or protect yourself in a bad situation (like not hanging out with someone because they are bad news bears) but I think we have to be careful with who we give the terms "serious" and "fundamentalist" because some of the interpretations are not based entirely on what is said in the bible, which would make some peoples interpretations a bit crazy.
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monkeydelarge: (...) hardcore Christians in the military (...)
"It's time to kick ass and turn the other cheek... and I'm all out of cheeks".
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Glasswolf: @Klumpen0815: I haven't read any of your posts but your last one, and I don't really think you're homophobic; you're fighting for an artist's rights to depict thier art however they choose to without it getting changed. And that's perfectly valid; an artist's work is thier self expression.

I think the main reason people want to change these artistic depictions is two fold; first, these games seem to be made as retail products first and foremost, and art second. Design choices are discussed and manipulated beyond the original creator's original intent to help make it sell more; look at DLC that changes the core experience, things that are cut or added in the design process, etc. That seems to comprimise it's integrity from the get go, similar to block buster films and the mainstream music industry, thus removing that 'shield' of artistic integrity in the eyes of many. Many don't see it as pure art; it's a product.

The second reason is because, far more so than any other art form, video games are truely interactable. They go beyond what a book, a film or show can produce; they make you take a role and be part of it. It's likley this, and to a lesser extent the sense of 'ownership' that stems from being a manatory part of the art's function, is why some people want the art to change, so it truely reflects them.

Bring these together, and you get a situation where a game is devalued as a piece of art in regards to its integrity due to it being seen first and foremost as a product, yet the art still has impact; more so because it *needs* you, and thus leaves a deeper effect on the 'viewer' than a static piece would.

When people take a role in a game, they want one of two things; to take on the role of a character, or take on the role of themselves in this media. The latter is why a lot of games that aren't character driven have a lot of character creation in them; if you're a black woman, you may want to be portrayed as yourself, and this customisation allows you to realise yourself in a decent fashion. Sexuality however, isn't something as cosmetic and obvious, but most of the time is irrelevant. Unless romance is a feature of the game. In situations where romance plays a key part of the experience, and you can realise yourself in one manner, but not the other, it can create discord and dissapointment. You would loose immersion. It can be frustrating, and some take it as a reminder they are not thought about (or to an extreme, 'accepted') by society. It's these sentiments, compounded by the strange view of video games as art we feel ownership of, that lead to people wanting things in these games. People want to more acurately depict themselves, and enjoy themselves on par with thier straight counterparts.

Is it the game designer's right to deny it? Yes, of course; thier product. But it would be kind of silly to do so if only from a financial standpoint; you'd make a lot more sales by catering to everyone than not for no reason (there doesn't seem to be any religious or cultural basis for this situation; it's more a case of Nintendo being culturally insular and clueless about certain things it's home society doesn't really deal with. Japan just doesn't think about gay people in a real world context, so Nintendo doesn't know what to even think with this sort of request.)
Best post I've read for a while and your other ones are good too.
One thing that I think everybody needs to read is this article that was posted earlier in the thread.

It's about the game-breaking glitch that allowed the same-sex marriages in the first place.

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Post edited May 10, 2014 by dmetras
@iippo: Ok, the reason people want gay romance in a game is because it already features straight romance in it. That's all. When romance is an aspect of the game, in anything from Baldur's Gate to Mass Effect and hell, even Saints Row, and there's no reason to not include it (eg. setting is medieval crusades, you'd get hung), then why not include it if *the straight version of romance is already there*? No one is asking for games without romance in it at all to suddenly just get gay romance in it. That's dumb. People just want equal representation in something that already represents one side; there is straight romance in a lot of games by default, and if the setting doesn't go against it, why shouldn't there be gay romance along side that?

Your 'bad ass babe' thing has been done actually, KOTOR had a lesbian who rejected you if you were male. Same in Mass Effect 3. And those are good character moments. I do think having an NPC hitting on the player though could be a bit wrong though, if it's beyond some casual flirting - Anders hit on you if you were a male in DA2, and rather than, as with Zevran, being able to ignore it or just casually indicate 'thanks but no thanks' offhandedly, the game grinded to a halt and made it a 'pick from our dialouge wheel of three choices' for some stupid reason, and the options were limited to 'Yeah, I like you too' or 'Sorry, hate fags'. Pissed me off so much that it removed such a normal decline for it. Things like this are why i think the player should be the one to take the lead in romances; flirting can be fine, but when done like that? Wow, no, just no.

I do really like your idea of NPCs doing stuff outside of the player with eachother though; that's why I never really romanced Isabella or Fenris, because I liked the fact they eventually got together (even if this did leave me with the sookiest emo ever, Anders, but I still liked him up until he went psycho mid Act 3).

I agree with you that 'making everyone bi' isn't really the answer; it is an answer, but the question is 'can it be done feasably both in context of the world and in writing?' and most of the time that is a resounding 'NOPE', so we need something much more workable. In these sorts of games, I really don't get why they limit romance options to just the party; that would remove the whole need for either limiting romance options ala Dragon Age (Two Straight, One Gay per gender thought tbh that was a fair enough number of romances for me personally) or making everyone bi ala Dragon Age 2. it's definatly something developers should consider.

You're right in saying romance shouldn't be the focus, but sadly in a lot of games that feature it, it does end up taking up a lot of attention from people. Games can be enjoyable with romance options, but they can be just as enjoyable without any at all.
Post edited May 10, 2014 by Glasswolf
I remember the slutty vampire girl in the school uniform upstairs of one of the discos in "Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines" being bisexual, I think you can get her laid regardless if you're a male or female character, as long as your charisma is developed far enough.
Post edited May 11, 2014 by Klumpen0815
Doesn't really matter to me, I guarantee most all the gay or lesbian people freaking out at Nintendo because of this would never have played the game in the first place. It's a game, chill out and deal with it. Just because some elements you want in a game are missing doesn't mean they hate you. >.<
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Klumpen0815: I remember the slutty vampire girl in the school uniform upstairs of one of the discos in "Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines" being bisexual, I think you can get her laid regardless if your a male or female character, as long as your charisma is developed far enough.
this would be the classic way to handle it in games. because romance options take time and money to make, the talking options are probably the same for both genders as well...
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Klumpen0815: I remember the slutty vampire girl in the school uniform upstairs of one of the discos in "Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines" being bisexual, I think you can get her laid regardless if your a male or female character, as long as your charisma is developed far enough.
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iippo: this would be the classic way to handle it in games. because romance options take time and money to make, the talking options are probably the same for both genders as well...
Vampire the Masquerade was an awesome game, but wasn't really fair with the male side of gay representation. You could flirt with the bodyguard of the beach shack with the guys who beat up Mercurio (he responds with disgust and sends you through so he doesn't have to deal with you), and seduce a food critic if you picked all the charm options...with plenty of ways to back out going 'I can't go through that this, just yuck' sort of things. There's also one were you can charm a guy who is waiting for a tow truck, but his response is the same regardless of gender and what approach you convince him with - even threatening him. Where as with female characters, you get your own ghoul hopelessly in love with you, female blood dolls oohing and ahhing over you, both Jeanne and V.V. flirting with you with some gender specific dialouge if I'm recalling right, Venus too...Kinda seemed very 'lesbians be hawt yo'.
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Elmofongo: Its obvious the whole reason nintendo did not include LGBT because they do not want to get flak from the Parent groups,Right Wing Politics, and Christian nuts that fears their children will be perverted by "Sodomites"

Its either flak from the Gay Community or flak from the 3 groups. Basically Nintendo is screwed either way :P
Sad thing is, it would even make their game illegal in Russia, with the law against 'homo propaganda'. It' s a sad world we' re living in.
Post edited May 11, 2014 by DubConqueror
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iippo: this would be the classic way to handle it in games. because romance options take time and money to make, the talking options are probably the same for both genders as well...
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Glasswolf: Vampire the Masquerade was an awesome game, but wasn't really fair with the male side of gay representation. You could flirt with the bodyguard of the beach shack with the guys who beat up Mercurio (he responds with disgust and sends you through so he doesn't have to deal with you), and seduce a food critic if you picked all the charm options...with plenty of ways to back out going 'I can't go through that this, just yuck' sort of things. There's also one were you can charm a guy who is waiting for a tow truck, but his response is the same regardless of gender and what approach you convince him with - even threatening him. Where as with female characters, you get your own ghoul hopelessly in love with you, female blood dolls oohing and ahhing over you, both Jeanne and V.V. flirting with you with some gender specific dialouge if I'm recalling right, Venus too...Kinda seemed very 'lesbians be hawt yo'.
That's due to the fact, that current western culture still sees women as "the beautiful/sexy gender", that's why today way more women than men are bisexual or homosexual, just like in the upper class of ancient greece only with the genders exchanged. As I've said: It's a cultural (and not genetical) thing. Vampire: Bloodlines is something from our times, so you shouldn't wonder.
Post edited May 11, 2014 by Klumpen0815
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Klumpen0815: That's due to the fact, that current western culture still sees women as "the beautiful/sexy gender", that's why today way more women than men are bisexual or homosexual, just like in the upper class of ancient greece only with the genders exchanged. As I've said: It's a cultural (and not genetical) thing. Vampire: Bloodlines is something from our times, so you shouldn't wonder.
Uh, I don't really think there are more homosexual women.

It's just that their statuses are different, and homophobia towards males and females express themselves very differently. Their public reprentations, mainly in the medias, are different. Lesbians are "accepted" as far as they stay a commodity for males (threesomes, etc), that is : not lesbian. While a male homosexual couple will be refused existence directly ("how dare you hold hands in a public space, and impose us your sight"), female homosexual couples will be merely refused their exclusivity. In practice, they will be treated as sluts, as easy women, open for male flirting, and, generally speaking, as "not in a couple" (while a male/female couple will be treated as "closed"). And they will be displayed in fictions as fuel for male fantasies. They only get the same hostility and "invisibility treatment" as male homosexuals only when they are to openly, blantantly, and unambiguously "not for males".

Basically, females have more work to do in order to prove that they are not the assumed "bisexuals only waiting for your mighty manhood", and their rights to be simple homosexuals is denied just as strongly -if not even more- than male's once they have established that they are simply not available to men.

I think that, while there are roughly as many males and females homosexuals, you will "see" more lesbians in fictions, and less "in the real world", because of this specific kind of image and conditional visibility they have.
Post edited May 11, 2014 by Telika