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dreadcog: It's okay man, believe what you want because this is the same old story told over again. I'm not here to change your mind about anything. Debating is pointless. One day you'll see what we are talking about.

Gawd, I hope not. The day I join the tinfoil hat wearing crowd with you would be one of the lowest points of my life. I prefer my own sometimes humorous but mostly harmless insanity as it is.
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cogadh: How am I being treated like a criminal, simply because I am using a digital download service for some of my PC gaming needs rather than buying physical media?

Because Valve reserves the right to cut you off from all the games you've bought, at any time, and for any reason they see fit, without any compensation whatsoever.
I don't care if they've ever done it. They have the right (they say), and the ability. That is enough for me.
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Krankor: I need everyone to point at me and laugh.
Just bought 'The Dig' off STEAM and guess what?
Launch game...
The game is currently unavailable, please try another time.
So after my short trip away, I'm back in GOG land.

I feel a certain smug sense of vindication right now...
Well, it's certainly only temporary, but you'd think they'd test stuff like that before release day, no? Just one more reason for me not to buy anything there.
Post edited July 08, 2009 by Wishbone
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dreadcog: It's okay man, believe what you want because this is the same old story told over again. I'm not here to change your mind about anything. Debating is pointless. One day you'll see what we are talking about.
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cogadh: Gawd, I hope not. The day I join the tinfoil hat wearing crowd with you would be one of the lowest points of my life. I prefer my own sometimes humorous but mostly harmless insanity as it is.

Well when the idealists come knocking on my door I'll point them in your direction.
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cogadh: How am I being treated like a criminal, simply because I am using a digital download service for some of my PC gaming needs rather than buying physical media?
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Wishbone: Because Valve reserves the right to cut you off from all the games you've bought, at any time, and for any reason they see fit, without any compensation whatsoever.
I don't care if they've ever done it. They have the right (they say), and the ability. That is enough for me.

I keep hearing people say things like this, but I have never seen an actual source for this idea. Where does it actually say this in anything Valve has produced? I'm not trying to call you out, I'm honestly curious on this point. People keep saying this and it would not be surprising if Valve did have some ability like this through Steam, but no one seems to be able to point out where the idea that Valve said they could and would do this came from.
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Wishbone: Because Valve reserves the right to cut you off from all the games you've bought, at any time, and for any reason they see fit, without any compensation whatsoever.
I don't care if they've ever done it. They have the right (they say), and the ability. That is enough for me.
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cogadh: I keep hearing people say things like this, but I have never seen an actual source for this idea. Where does it actually say this in anything Valve has produced? I'm not trying to call you out, I'm honestly curious on this point. People keep saying this and it would not be surprising if Valve did have some ability like this through Steam, but no one seems to be able to point out where the idea that Valve said they could and would do this came from.

Then let me point it out to you: http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/]
http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/[/url]
Article 13, section C.2.
You never really own your games with Steam, you do with GoG and also should check out this new site that just came out www.GameStreamer.com they just came out in San Francisco and are claiming to have the first open game catalog like iTunes.
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cogadh: I keep hearing people say things like this, but I have never seen an actual source for this idea. Where does it actually say this in anything Valve has produced? I'm not trying to call you out, I'm honestly curious on this point. People keep saying this and it would not be surprising if Valve did have some ability like this through Steam, but no one seems to be able to point out where the idea that Valve said they could and would do this came from.

EULA or in this case Steam Subscriber Agreement.
Oops, Wishbone beat me to it.
Post edited July 08, 2009 by Namur
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cogadh: How am I being treated like a criminal, simply because I am using a digital download service for some of my PC gaming needs rather than buying physical media?
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Wishbone: Because Valve reserves the right to cut you off from all the games you've bought, at any time, and for any reason they see fit, without any compensation whatsoever.
I don't care if they've ever done it. They have the right (they say), and the ability. That is enough for me.
I don't know why, but it doesn't bother me that there is a corporation that can cut me off from SOME of the games I own IF I seriously misbehave. I've had so much fun playing though the Half-life series (among other things) that I just don't care.
Valve and I have this understanding, you dig? I buy their products, and they profit. I have fun with their products while they count money. When I have experienced problems with a game I bought on Steam (Arx Fatalis has issues even in the GOG version, apparently), their tech support was plenty helpful.
I dunno. Maybe it's because I've never been victimized, or because I'm naive enough to think that as long as I follow the rules, nothing seriously tragic is going to happen, but whenever I hear people ragging on Steam, or local authorities, or the U.S. Government, I just feel this urge to stand up on a table, wave my arms around and shout "WOOOOOO! ESTABLISHMENT!"
Yeah, I like the fact that all your licenses are able to be accessed online through their login portal and you dont have to bother with the stupid client. Please the download speed are 50 times faster... They just need to get some AAA content on there which is suppose to happen soon from what they say.
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SideSwiipe: You never really own your games with Steam, you do with GoG and also should check out this new site that just came out www.GameStreamer.com they just came out in San Francisco and are claiming to have the first open game catalog like iTunes.

From their EULA:
"Content you download or otherwise access via the Web Site may contain third party digital rights management systems (“DRM”) which may allow for communication between the Content and the third party and utilize security features to prevent unauthorized use or distribution. These DRMs are subject to separate license agreements. GameStreamer is not responsible for any loss or damage relating to the use of any DRM, and Content incorporating a DRM, or your dealings with the third party responsible for the DRM. The DRM may also communicate information regarding your computer systems, network locations, IP address and software to GameStreamer in certain circumstances in order to prevent unauthorized use or distribution of the associated Content."
I still prefer GOG.
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HockeyPuk: Yeah, I like the fact that all your licenses are able to be accessed online through their login portal and you dont have to bother with the stupid client. Please the download speed are 50 times faster... They just need to get some AAA content on there which is suppose to happen soon from what they say.

funny, I just did download test fo D2D, Steam and Bigfish and GameStreamer... Gamestreamer was at 6.2Mbps and next fastest was steam at 1.2Mbps, Bigfish was pathetic on large files.
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Skystrider: The folks on the Steam forums are breaking my heart. They truly have no idea what they are talking about. Like the old saying goes: "throwing pearls before swine" indeed.
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Krankor: I don't have the energy to go and look. Man that forum makes me want to kill.

Geez, what sort of loser would hang out in the forums of a digital distributor anyway?
Oh waiit...
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cogadh: I keep hearing people say things like this, but I have never seen an actual source for this idea. Where does it actually say this in anything Valve has produced? I'm not trying to call you out, I'm honestly curious on this point. People keep saying this and it would not be surprising if Valve did have some ability like this through Steam, but no one seems to be able to point out where the idea that Valve said they could and would do this came from.
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Wishbone: Then let me point it out to you: http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/]
http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/[/url]
Article 13, section C.2.

Very interesting, but I question whether that would really stand up to legal scrutiny. I am certain that, at least in the US, local law can and will override a subscription agreement, even if that agreement happens to claim a particular jurisdiction, like Valve's does. In fact, it pretty much states that in section 15 of the agreement. I don't expect they would ever do this, but I'd really like to hear from Valve what circumstances would make them enact 13C2.
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Wishbone: I still prefer GOG.
In theory, what could you do about if GOG decided to cancel your account?
I actually like not "owning" the games on steam, because it means there's less junk I need to contend with both on my computer and in my room. I've got a ton of game-boxes just lying around; I'm probably not going to play them anymore, but not a lot of people necessarily want to buy them. On top of that, I need to regularly wipe my computer clean of all the games I'm not playing and which are taking up valuable hard-drive space.
If, on the other hand, there's all this digital memory of games I own on a server somewhere, I don't have the hassle of trying to make space for everything. It's all on the server, taking up minimal space on my PC and no space in my home. I think the sheer convenience of the system is worth the possible risks.
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Wishbone: Then let me point it out to you: http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/]
http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/[/url]
Article 13, section C.2.
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cogadh: Very interesting, but I question whether that would really stand up to legal scrutiny. I am certain that, at least in the US, local law can and will override a subscription agreement, even if that agreement happens to claim a particular jurisdiction, like Valve's does. In fact, it pretty much states that in section 15 of the agreement.

Then I suggest you go back and read section 14 once more. I, as a European, may be exempt from some of the clauses in that agreement, but you, as an American, are explicitly not.
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cogadh: I don't expect they would ever do this, but I'd really like to hear from Valve what circumstances would make them enact 13C2.

Yes well, they very carefully avoid mentioning that at all, meaning "for whatever reason they like".